I think it's weird that you hated the knife-pulling, but you wanted the part where Jamie basically rapes her to stay? Thank God, they didn't stick with that. Hated it in the book, and it took a long time for me to go back to it, when I first read it.
Also, I'm glad they gave Claire the power because even as a book reader, I wanted Jamie to pay more for strapping her in the first place. If I hadn't read the books and I'd seen the strapping, I would have been mad as hell, so actually giving Claire the knife was the right choice, and helped balance the strapping. The writers can't just be about the readers, they need to be mindful of new and evolved audiences who have a real problem with that kind of thing. I already saw many people who swore that they couldn't continue to watch after seeing the scene where Claire was on the floor and Jamie was pulling her to him. The optics of that made a lot of people on Twitter uncomfortable.
"She was taken and she liked it" It was forced seduction, and new viewers would have fled the show, especially after the strapping, if that scene had been included, because it was basically rape.
You kept talking about how this wasn't the story, but the changes that they have made so far have been great, and will appeal more to a younger audience, not just the women who read the books twenty years ago.
In the book I was so frustrated that they didn't know that the ill-will came come from Leg Hair, so I was so glad that Jamie figured it out on the show.
Anon, I have to say that I was always the same way about Jamie not knowing about Leghair. I think I was mad that Claire didn't tell him; I'll have to reread some of my posts to remember. (Lorddddddd the disappearing memory!)
Love your comments. Who wants to be agreed with 24/7? Zzzz. So thanks. :)
I'm so glad you guys are back. I love Claire being strong and opinionated that's Claire, but I hope Jaime will grow a pair and not let her dominate this relationship. In the books they are BOTH strong and they RESPECT each other. I thought the beating scene was done very well, I was little worried, Sam and Cait did a wonderful job. I'm with Carol, it's the WAY IT WAS, get over it already!
Right, Libby?? That's the thing that drives me nuts. Like it or not, it happened. It was heinous - and it happened. My mother in law is watching The Ten Commandments. Slaves are being beaten. Should we omit that, too? Because it was unpleasant? (NOT that this old film was the pinnacle of actuality. Oy.) Tell the story so history won't repeat. (Lorddddd...choke me in the shallow water before I get too deep!) :)
Sorry, I can't make it to Monday Night MOP Chat, but I just want to say that, I've watched episode 9 now 3 times. I feel that this is Jamie's metamorphosis. We get an insight of him on the inside, and how much it is gonna change Jamie on the outside. He starts off as a cry baby and at the end he has turned into a MAN!
So excited to watch another MOP braking it down video! Anyhoo...was pumped yesterday morning when I checked Starz On Demand and found I could watch episode 9 already! Ok, so I watched 3 times yesterday, but I swear I dont have a problem. Lol. My immediate thought was...OMG, I loved it! But then i was like....wait, what? That was supposed to be MY 'canna be gentle about it' scene with the 2 rings! I agree, Carol, I'm disappointed so much of that was changed...BUT I'm rereading Outlander right now so I'll just have to relive that scene on the page instead...again! Hehe ;) I also agree with you guys that the sex scenes can be a 'bit much'. I can't believe I'm saying that because I LOVE Diana's sex scenes but I dont need to SEE it all...some things are best left to the imagination, ya ken? I actually never watch anything with this much sex/nudity in it, but HELLO this is my beloved Outlander and I'm not going anywhere! Lol:). One last thought...it has always bothered me that Jamie pledges to never to raise his hand to Claire again, but she continues to slap, hit, shove, and knee him in the balls right up through book 8! Not fair! Thoughts on that?
Just like today, a guy hits a woman - as in slap - not punch and he is a criminal but women can do anything. Slap, punch, kick, whatever and the guy is less than a man if he complains.
Few ever do complain about that. But I do. The physical and verbal abuse that Claire heaped on Jamie at the river before the strapping felt more like spousal abuse than the actual strapping scene. There was NO abuse psychology involved in the strapping - in Jamie's mind it was about justice. However, I personally felt there WAS abuse psychology in Claire's words and actions. That continues clear through the entire series - and Bree is the same way with Roger.
Well, I have to say that I think that Carol and Tracy are "spot on". I thought the forgiving scene was tremendous, anything after that was confusing to me. I missed the surprise of everyone at Leoch, I don't understand the logic behind the "LongHair" scene, and the intimate scene at the end, was just not the Jaime and Claire that is so wonderful in the book. I understand changing scenes due to timing, etc, and I have not minded any changes so far, but I had the exact same reaction. I had a houseful of men watching the Final Four Basketball and the wives were watching Outlander. It was unanimous between us. The guys asked us right away, well...?? And we were I think without comment at first. Just too different from the story. We so much loved Diana's version so much better. The ending with Jaime's comment, was just not what we were hoping to see. Hopeful for the next Saturday.
REMEMBER PAOLI, MAGGIE!!! I am so jealous that you were all watching together near where I grew up; Tracey and I should come watch with you sometime! (LOL Can you imagine? You guys sit down to watch Outlander and Tracey and I show up at the door with wine and a cheese plate. ROFLMAO.)
I am glad to see your post because it makes me feel like I'm not crazy. And as I said in the video, I can't do anything but love the series; it's so well done/acted/written, yada. It's just that it was my favorite scene in the book...so of course I'm going to be disappointed that it's different. And no biggie, right? Canna WAIT for next week!!! :)
Carol, we have a growing group here. You and Tracy and whomever would be welcome of course! We had plenty of libations including Sweet Tea Cosmos, along with wine and whiskey of course. I read through the comments, but still think the context was just not right with Laoghaire. The hallway scene should have been enough including him saying he took a vow and perhaps her showing more anger etc., wanting him or thinking he wanted her...etc. Also, the Leoch interchange with Column and Leticia was awkward. I missed seeing Jaime carry Claire in etc. I also did not like Jaime apologizing to Laoghaire. He is just not coming across as strong as in the books. There were just some really wonderful interchanges between Claire and Jaime to begin this amazing showing of strength needed to love someone, that I really missed. TV timing is one thing, but... The dirk scene should have been as in the book. It would have taken the forgiven scene to an even higher level of perfection.The timing during an intimate scene, just wasn't the same. We had about 12 ladies, and interestingly, we all had the same comments while watching the episode.... Maybe the next episode will help put things in perspective. The changes were rather dramatic and we are quite spoiled having such a great author. You ladies are doing a stupendous job and I look forward to reading the recaps and everyone's comments. We came on board with Outlander with the Starz programming. We have since read all the books and are enjoying the TV version . I think it is the best love story ever written and I am just hoping they keep it special and not be overly concerned with ratings. R. Moore even commented that Starz mgmt. has significant faith in the story because of the fan base and have told them to slow down and take their time. I think the unusually large and faithful fan base will take care of ratings. Of course keeping Sam on board will be most helpful! I think they signed 7 year contracts. The frustration of course is the waiting.... 3 or 4 months is ok, almost a year, is long. Thanks again for all your time and effort! it is greatly appreciated.
Hi Tracey and Carol, thank you for the recap! I love to hear your viewpoint on the show. I thought last night’s episode was very well done. I have just a couple of comments in addition to what others have said. First, I do feel like the series is still missing some part of Jamie’s know-how and confidence. For instance, in the rescue scene, I felt that Jamie would have had more to say instead of standing there while Randall taunted him. But I did love the exchange where Randall asked if he could see the scars on Jamie’s back (how SICK is that) and Jamie said “it would be the last thing you’d ever see”. Next, I liked how the episode started to show Jamie’s leadership skills in convincing Colum to give the gold back to Dougal. I also loved how they showed him thinking over the situation with Claire and deciding not to follow the traditional ways (promising never to raise a hand to her again). Last – the sex scene at the castle. I did not enjoy seeing Claire’s hand on Jamie’s throat and then holding the knife on him. But then she threw the knife to the side and to me it felt like she had got the last of her anger out and they could move on and be closer than ever. I preferred the way this scene was handled in the series vs. the book (sorry Carol). Anyway, just my thoughts. I’m looking forward to next week’s episode! Lisa D.
No worries, Lisa!! I'd rather you be happy about the episode! I'm just still living in my literary "I canna be gentle about it" Diana-written world (and I read that she loved the ep, too!)...but I canna wait for next week!! :)
Hey Girls! Nice job on the video. Felt compelled to comment on some of your observations (after having watched 109 approx. 109 times since yesterday…lol. Apologies in advance for the length. Here goes…First, CAN’T BELIEVE you guys forgot to mention when Dougal admits he’s Hamish’s baby daddy! I was like: “Holy Sh*t! Can’t believe he just did that to Colum’s face and in front of Jamie and Ned! Just an observation. On to “the fight.” First KUDOS to Sam and Cait. Love the scene (yes, that was my fav, even over the hot mondey sex at the end). Loved watching Sam transition from a furious “You foul-mouthed bitch! Ye will nae speak to me that way” 18th century clansman to a crumbling, scared to death he was going watch Claire be raped and killed in front of his eyes by BJR (and probably get himself and his men hanged in the bargain as well) adoring husband in the span of 5 minutes. He brought me to tears. I do think they could have dragged it out a bit longer (Sorry, but girlfriend should have begged his forgiveness a few more times, once she realized what kind of cojones it took for him to go get her). And I agree, the “falling in love” line was a little too precious. But loved the scene anyway. On to the spanking and make-up sex…I think they handled it as well as they could have by trying to lighten it up and make it almost funny (and showing Claire giving as good as she got). IMO, they didn’t follow the book re: the make-up sex because a VIEWING audience would never get the nuance in the books. I re-read that passage last night and Jamie is hurting her at one point, which she tells him. He basically says “Too bad, I plan to f…k you into submission, woman.” As things progress, Claire finds that she kinda likes it rough and joins in the fun. I think Tracey hit the nail on the head….all viewers (non book-readers) would have seen was a brute that beat his wife with a belt and then practically raped her for not obeying him. And then her kind of liking it. That would not have gone over well AT ALL. So yeah, I get why they didn’t do the sex scene like the book. NOBODY wants to hate Jamie Fraser. As for pulling the knife while she was doing her Annie Oakley impersonation…not sure I liked that either. I agree that it was a way to balance out the power…but let’s face it, if she wanted a legit promise from him not to beat her again, that wasn’t the time, as his attention was…ah…elsewhere. Carol, I’m with you on not seeing Jamie as submissive. Hoping that as the series progresses, they will shift that a bit. Padawan’s ready to be a Jedi. Lastly, Laoghaire. I’m ok with the way they’re setting up what is to come in the next episode or two by showing her as the woman scorned, but it will be problematic if the series goes all the way through the books (ye ken what I mean re: Jamie and Leghair in the future). I did not like how they changed the whole “ill wish” sequence (and was frankly ROFLMAO at the Scooby Doo comments!!). Not sure why they changed that. In the books, Claire never tells Jamie about L’s part in her “trials”, which allows for Jamie’s horrendous decision much later in the series (something he probably would not have done had he known L’s true nature and what she had done to Claire). Wonder how they’re going to address that (maybe they’re just not thinking that far ahead). Channeling Carrie Bradshaw: I couldn’t help but wonder how the episode would have played out if a woman had written and/or directed it (instead of Matt Roberts and Richard Clark).
I was thinking that same thing with Laoghaire, Janis. If they set her up as the villain and Jamie is aware of it, how are they going to explain future events?
I would like to think that this would cause major changes in season 3. Seriously that was the hardest part for me to deal with in Voyager. I don't really see that changing though. Maybe, Jamie will know about the ill wish, but not anything later on? (really trying to be vague and non spoiler-y)
Hey Anon & Heather, Not sure where they're going with her. (I hate talking in circles...so I'll just say **SPOILER ALERT** FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T READ THE BOOKS**) Dinna read any further.
I just can't see how they can have Jamie "forget" about this (perhaps, you're right Anon, maybe he wont' know she's the one that sets Claire up with Geillis, and he'll only think she left the creepy Blair Witch voodoo doll, and write it off as her being young and hurt). They kind of have to work around that because there is NO WAY Jamie would marry her if he knew she tried to have Claire killed). Should be interesting!
And yes, we totally forgot to comment on the wee Hamish sitch! Who was in the room at that point--just Jamie and Ned? It's likely that Ned already knew, and Jamie always suspected, so maybe it's not as big of a reveal in terms of the other characters finding out--but a definite confirmation to us...
Janis you are SPOT ON about the fact that they made the episode the way they had to, girl. And I'm thrilled you don't agree with me all over the place. That would be way boring. :) And ROFLMAO I forgot about Scooby Doo! I haven't watched the video...but now I think I may have to. LOL!
Hi, Me again. What was the deal with BJR inviting Jamie to "join in" and his comment about wondering why any man would want to get pleasure with a woman? Again, maybe because of the male writer & director? Thought that was too big a spoiler (for one thing) and for another a bit misleading. Maybe I'm wrong, but I never thought of BJR as necessarily being a homosexual; He clearly has impotence issues with women, but that's a separate issue. Wasn't there some mention in the books of him raping a few women in his life? I always saw him as a sociopath who gets off on hurting people, male and female.
In the books, Jamie tells Claire around this time about BJR's proposition at Fort William (following the "it's personal with him" line), but it's missing in the show. So maybe the "join in" line was to take the place of that. With regards to his sexuality, I think BJR would fall as a 4 on the Kinsey Scale (Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual), but he definitely open to anyone.
Thanks! I had forgotten about that proposition. Think you/re right that he rolls both ways. Hope they are able to get it across that he's just a sadistic SOB whose behaviour has nothing to do with sex.
Couple of things I avoided saying in the video but will do so here...
SPOILERS FROM THE REST OF THE BOOK COMING.... • So as anyone who's read the books knows, the main reason I did NOT like the "I was falling in love" thing is that the first time that JAMMF tells Claire he loves her is MUCH later in the books and is one of my favorite parts. I know telling us the viewer is not the same as telling Claire--but honestly, I really felt like it wasn't necessary to say at all. It's written all over your face, dude. No worries. :-)
• Who else was FREAKED OUT by the foreshadowing of Claire going "Jamie, just get out of here" when BJR was holding the knife to her throat and Jamie had just come in? The fact that they will be in opposite roles later just gave me chills...
And did you notice episode 9 started the same as episode 1? "Strange the things you remember..." Or something like that. First in Claire's POV and now Jamie's...verra nice! (Actually that was in the Ron Moore interview after the episode. I wouldn't have picked up on that til a few more viewings ;))
First time commenter--I have watched every one of your recaps and I must say I was looking forward to your reactions almost as much as watching this episode. You are the best! Thanks for putting yourself out there especially when you are tired. As usual spot on with your observations: too much voiceover, lovely acting in forgiveness scene (more powerful by far than the sex scence imho), hilarious scooby doo comment. I think this would have played out differently with a woman writer. A little too much "Game of Thrones" style gratuitous leave nothing to the imagination style for me. The knife thing felt too staged to me but the fealty scene with the knife was touching. I hope we get more women writers in the upcoming episodes. Thanks again for your smart and funny commentary.
"I was looking forward to your reactions almost as much as watching this episode."
Anon, that seriously just made my day. Tracey and I were exhausted making that video, after having hellish days on Thursday after the premiere (NOT that we would EVER complain; we know how incredibly lucky we were to be there!) :)
After making it, I slept 3 hours and got up at 3AM to drive to Florida from NJ with my family, with full intentions of working on our interview post/videos on what should have been an 18 hour car ride (but ended up being 22!) Well...I had laptop power issues and ended up doing the bulk of it today...while my family went about their Easter.
(Let it be known that Tracey offered to do the editing but nooooo...I thought it would be a breeze. HA!)
So...my point...you have NO idea how absolutely appreciative I am to hear you say something so very kind. I am seriously tearing up reading your comment. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We look forward to making more videos for awesome Outlander buds like you. :)
Thanks for your reply Carol and for your hard work on Easter. Really enjoying the red carpet interviews. I feel like I know you and Tracey because of your friendly and open style of communication. I think Starz should put you guys on the payroll! I would love it if third sister Jill made a guest appearance in an upcoming recap. Holidays must be so fun with your family. Keep up the good work Carol and Tracey!
The knife thing works for me. Even though it takes place while the are having sex, it is in no way sex play. Claire needs to have a moment to show that she is Jamie's equal. Jamie's oath is nice and all, but, from Claire's perspective, there is nothing but his word to hold him to it. By pulling the knife on him, she expresses that she can hold him accountable to his oath. Why we know Jamie and trust him to stand by his word, this is important to establish their equality as partners.
I guess I don't see how the sex scene is any more pornographic than the wedding night. Yes it was a little "rougher", but as far as what was shown, I don't see the difference. I no almost nothing about filming/producing, but this episode defiantly showed Claire differently, as it was in Jamie's perspective. The camera lingered on Claire a lot longer than in the wedding episode, so maybe that was why some people perceive it more as pornography, because it is the male lens that typically exists in porn. Despite that connection though, I still think this scene built the story and their relationship just as it did in the wedding episode. Jamie and Claire often express themselves and connect through sex, and I see that in this scene. I love the way it is written in the books; but, this scene was needed to show that Jamie and Claire's relationship has its foundation in mutual respect, not power and dominance.
Starz is not shying away from showing us anything in the show, just as Diana does not shy away from writing anything in the book. We don't need to read about Jamie peeing in the chamber pot and we don't need to see Claire's boobs, but it adds to the story. I'm also a little peeved by how many times I here people complain about how much screen time Claire's boobs get, but no one has said a thing about Jamie's butt. Boobs are not inherently sexual, and in those intimate bedroom scenes you would have to be almost distractedly intentional to keep the covered up. Who keeps a sheet pulled over the chest after sex with their husband? I don't think anyone on here has made a big deal over this, but just getting these thoughts off my chest. (Hehe)
OK, I will try to make this short and to the point. 1. Thank you ladies for your unpaid dedication to these great books. It's like pissing your pants in black pants, gives you a warm feeling but no one notices, so I wanted to put that thank you out there. 2. Please don't hold back on your thought in fear of spoilers. If anything it helps the first timers into the deeper understanding of the scenes and will give a new appreciation into the story....don't hold back! We want to explore how what happens now relates to what is going to happen. 3. YES Horrock was another smoking hotty McScotty. WE WANT MORE pounding on table. 4. Spanking scene was brilliantly done and there will be haters...who cares.. don't read/watch history if you have a issues. Not everything pukes rainbows. 5. I thought the naked bodice and titty grab with Laoghaire was a "rolling my eyes" moment but anything that will get my husband to watch it with me..sigh. 6. The make up sex scene..OMG I LOVED IT! Claire showed him who is master fer sur. The booty grinding shot was a "am I really seeing this" moment but then it is those shocking moments that leave us so fulfilled later. It had to be raunchy and powerful for Claire to be taken serious. She HAD to be in control otherwise it never would have worked on the screen and the time limitations. 7. The bad spell discovery was a bit Rut Roh...and didn't work.
Recap of my recap of your recap of E9; This episode was about ying/yang, Claire/Laoghaire McDoggle/Collum Jamie/Frank Easy/Challenge passion/anger love/hate ...thus creating a balance through opposites.
“She really draws her boundary line. When we have that other intense sex scene, I think that that’s her saying, ‘Look, I will love you with every fiber of my being, but not more than I love myself, and as long as you respect me, then we’re good.’” — Caitriona Balfe
Just saw this quote from Caitriona. I'm not sure what interview it was from, but I thought it sums up Claire's POV in the sex scene perfectly. And who knows better than Caitriona?
Good Point! I wasn't offended by the knife incident; just think it would have been better if they had followed the books (where she threatens him, then he takes the dirk and makes his oath to her). Not sure it was as effective during sex. This is really a guy question, but wouldn't he have lost his erection when she stuck the knife in his throat? Just wondering. Never threatened a man's life while having sex with him, so I have nothing to go on here...
Yes Janis! I mean, if anything, I would think that pulling the knife would kill the mood a bit! Also as an aside, I'm kicking myself because i wanted to pull a clip of "he's taking the knife out of the cheese! Do you think he wants some cheese?" from Arthur to stick in that part of the video and totally forgot :-( (Carol would have LOLOLed at that...)
LOL Janis. Honestly, I wasn't offended by anything in the episode. I just didn't care for what I'm now calling the "eff Jamie to death" scene. LOL! I totally get where Claire's coming from though. :)
Carol, I am right there with you not wanting my Jamie man toned down a notch. All my life I have been surrounded by strong, intelligent, able-bodied men. Heroic men have a code of honor they follow, are true gentlemen and are not big on excuse making. Jamie is a 24 year old hero in the making. This is why I am attracted to and have loved all things Outlander. Diana Gabaldon has written intensely and with great care about the complexities of a masculine hero...in a way that I, as a female, can enjoy. I won't go nuts about the subtle changes of storyline because frankly, I am just too grateful for the show. But please, please (out in t.v land) don't water this guy down. Claire loves Jamie for the man he is and will become. She's gone through war and will again. She knows what a hero looks like, has decided she will go through life married to one (not an easy task for a woman) She is naturally heroic as well. Gosh, I love these characters and I am so happy to have a place to share that enthusiasm. Thank you both for the fantastic fun videos!!
It is so great to see you back in business again. We know what a job producing these videos must be for you (and an extra chore just now with TartanAffair, Easter, and travel) and we really appreciate you for doing it.
I have a number of comments on the episode and your recap:
- love your 92Y drinking glasses, Carol
- Tovah Feldshuh is a wonderful actress! Have you seen her many appearances on "Law and Order"? Also, she has a one-woman stage show "Golda's Balcony" about Golda Meir that is epic; she has taken it all over the world; there are scenes on YouTube
Now to Episode 9 ----
- So; the "mystery Blonde" was Leery .... more on that/her later
- I think they use The Voiceover way too much in this series; BUT I could listen to Sam Heughan read the phone book as long as he does it in Highland Scots and someone will produce it
- Anyone notice that in the kilting/dressing scene Jamie is pinning a Mackenzie brooch on his plaid??? I thought he didn't wear them
- Remember that this episode was produced out of sequence. Thus, this was the FIRST sex scene that Sam and Cait shot; and it may be the source of several continuity glitches. Besides the Mackenzie brooch; there's Claire's wedding rings (both of the ones she wears do not look like the ones she wears in later episodes), Mrs Fitz's wardrobe, Leery's hair, Rupert's hair/beard, yada, yada, yada. I'll find more on my 80th or 90th viewing... It was written and directed by men, as opposed to the wedding episode, which was helmed by women. Interesting.
- I think the actor who plays Horrocks should play Stephen Bonnet if the series gets that far. This was a helluvan audition, don't you think?
- In the book Jamie DID kill people in the rescue of Claire. He took the pistol off a sentry he killed on the way into the fort. The sentry fired his gun at Jamie and missed. That's how Jamie got the gun and why it was unloaded. Also, I'm pretty sure that no water was involved in or around the book rescue.
- They're laying the Black Jack/sadism stuff on with a trowel. But I don't know how well they'll be able to explain the nature of his "performance" issues going forward. Pretty sure he can't get it up unless he knows he's scaring or inflicting pain on his "victim," whether male or female. That's why Jamie pissed him off so badly at the flogging because he wouldn't cry out or beg for mercy; and why Jack didn't get aroused with Claire until she screamed. This stuff gets conflated into a meaningless argument over whether BJR is gay or not. I don't think it matters; although he does seem to have a strong fixation on Jamie, for whatever reason.
- I have more ... but I have to break away for a bit. Back with stuff on Leery,
Hi Auntie Lamb!! I have only watched the ep once (so far)...so I am loving all your points. THANKS for noticing my 92Y glass! :) REALLY interesting point about this being the first sex scene they shot. Um...to quote Jamie Fraser, "holy god." CAN YOU IMAGINE?!? Holy crap, I have to chew on this a bit. I didn't realize that!!!!
Yes, Carol - I remember an interview that Sam gave to The Hollywood Reporter back about the time of the wedding episode where he said that he and Cait had filmed some "intense" sex scenes for episodes 9 AND 10, and that these had gotten them comfortable with doing such scenes going forward. I have a theory about what we may see in that regard in episode 10 (for later).
- The Jamie/Claire "forgiven" fight scene is fabulous! I think it's the best scene in this episode, and it may prove out to be one of my favorite scenes in all of season 1 (up there with "Your mother had the sweetest smile" scene from "The Wedding") Fabulous acting -- it's great to see Sam, in particular, let loose.
- And yes, I'm certain I've heard the actors - and Diana G - describe it as an audition scene that was used in Jamie/Claire "chemistry" tests. I especially remember hearing DG recall seeing Sam grab Cait and shout "You DO belong to me!"
- I'm with you on the "falling in love" part of the voiceover at the end of the scene. I would have been fine with it saying "I could have forgiven her anything(full stop)" That's because I LOVE the scene at Lallybroch where J tells C that he married her because he wanted her and she asks, "Do you mean you married me out of love?" while chasing him around the room, throwing things at him, knocking him to the floor, and laughing.
- I agree with what's been said up to now about the context of the "spanking" scene. It WAS a creature of the 18th century; and we're looking at it with 21st century values. BIG disconnect. Also, I don't think the point's yet been made that it's an act committed by a most beloved - perhaps THE most beloved - character in that genre of fiction. That's a major hurdle to overcome.
- I can't believe Tracey's never seen "The Quiet Man"! See it, Tracey, see it. The granddaddy of all spanking scenes!!
- It was Willie who was the character who let Claire get away and who dropped the dime on Dougal and gave the gold back to Colum.
- Ah, Leery ... I believe the whole point of involving her in this way in this episode is to set her up as a villainess going forward. We know the "Whyyyyy" and "Feel my Boobs" scenes weren't in the books. Here's why I think they're doing it; NOBODY KNOWS HOW FAR THIS SERIES IS GONNA GO. We all love the books and know what happens in them, but who's to say how far the TV series will take us. We can hope, but ratings are everything. Thus we need to have a bad guy (or gal) to explain the non-BJR bad stuff that happens for now. That's old leg-hair!
I have more stuff on the knife scene, other sexy times, and the issues raised by an as-yet-uncertain future for the series. But, later.
First time commenter here Ladies,I do enjoyed reading all your comments,loved ep9.,has read all of DG's eight books,& to be honest I like Claire better in the tv adaptation somehow Claire comes across as a bit too blunt & opinionated,but then(spoiler) in Voyager she is the one showing her great love for Jamie ,but do hope in the next ep's it will also be shown what an honourable loving man he is.I didnt mind the change with Loaghaire,it showed her in a more realistic way her clingy,manipulative self,also showed Jamies as a real man.,not just the King of man as he is in my mind,Ithought the spanking scene was handled excellently,& the make up rough sex was so much better than the book,it was a bit deep&heavy for me in the book,Sam acting was brilliant in this ep.&Cait also!
People act like spanking scenes are something new. Am I the only one who grew up watching John Wayne and Maureen Ohara? The only problem I have with this adaptation of the book is the order of events. I think it would have been better if Claire had made her knife threat before Jamie made his vow with the same weapon. The way it played out on TV made it seem that Claire doesn't take his vow as seriously as he does. It also makes her a bit too dominant.
Carol, I am totally with you on that last sex scene. At the end I was left feeling that Jamie was totally kitty-whipped. I am expecting Episode 10 to open with Jamie and Murtaugh sitting in a salon getting mani-pedis.
By reversing the Vow and the Knife scenes they totally belittled the grave importance of the vow that Jamie made. By combining them with the sex scene it felt to me like he was trading his honor for sex. In the book, Jamie began as the aggressor and then Claire levelled the playing field with a dose of scratching and biting, with the end result being a balance of power that went on to become a hallmark characteristic of their relationship. By making Claire the aggressor in that sex scene they turned Jamie's line about not being able to possess her soul without losing his own into a cheesy one-liner. That revelation from the power struggle was a significant insight from Jamie that contributed to Claire's realization that Jamie understood her in ways that Frank never had. This scene was a pivotal point in Claire's decision to stay with Jamie.
What I was left with at the end of this episode was that Jamie is willing to sacrifice everything in order to get nookie and all Claire has to do in order to control him is to freeze him out of bed. The fact that she did not pause her pelvis when she held the knife to his heart but kept grinding on him instead reinforced the vibe that she was using her vagina as a weapon. That, to me, is a shallow mockery of the relationship that had been forged between them by that point. Bleh!
THANK YOU, CAROL! We watch The Quiet Man every St. Patrick's Day with a wee dram. I know it by heart. The other day, someone asked me how far something was, and I told them, "It's just a good stretch of the legs!" :)
VERITY - whoa. You should be making videos because that was stellar. That's the kind of commentary I wish I could pull forth from my mouth...but instead, all that comes out is "I didn't really care for it." LOL NICE JOB - I'm with ya all the way. I have to go reread your comment to let it sink in. Thanks. PS - ROFLMAO re: mani pedis.
Thank you Antie Lamb for bringing up the "Claire hair continuity issue". I know it is probably nitpicky but it was making me nuts. Her hair is long, then short, then long, then short, and so on!
My first time to leave a comment I have listened to all of your reviews they are wonderful and make me laugh and smile. Thank you for all your hard work Starz realizes what they have in their fan base supporters hope they allow you on the red carpet always!
Episode 9
I am watching the series with my husband who is not a book reader and I do not tell him anything. He told me in episode 6 that BJR had a thing for men when he shaved Hawkins I tried to look innocent he just laughed and said I get it. The incident with Loaghaire upset me tremendously but my husband a non-book reader was upset with Claire called her bull headed, stubborn and selfish and said Jamie was at a crossroads with the fact he may have sacrificed his marriage by the beating. My husband had no issue with Loaghaire and said Jamie showed great character by turning her away so Ron your forgiven but do not do it again and had they kissed I would have smashed the tv sorry lost it for a sec. lol I have to agree that maybe they do not know how far the series will go and I want to see all the books so I may have to tolerate changes like I have a choice going to watch no matter what. Maybe Jamie won’t marry Loaghaire we can still have Marselli without a marriage to Loahaire I can dream no!
I was complaining to my husband that Jamie is such a good man and loves Claire so and the show is not showing that, he disagreed with me and said he feels that Jamie loves her and would do anything for her and did this episode. He turned his back on his culture and changed what he believed was tradition, just and right, hard for a man to do and Claire has not done that yet. I love everyone's opinion and love the Outlander family we can all disagree and still come together it’s great. Just like Claire and Jamie. You guys all rock and loved the video, all the comments and the sharing of your experience at the preview in New York watched it on Periscope. Have a sun shinny day!
I'm so glad I watched your re-cap (just stumbled across your site). I have been thinking all along that this Jamie (while smoking hot) is not my Jamie. My thoughts on the episode: (1) I loved the "forgiven" scene in the show because it was the first time I felt like Sam embodied the spirit of Jamie when he went nose to nose with Claire in the fight but then showed how much he loved her when he said she was tearing his guts out (I agree the corny voice-over was unnecessary). (2) For me, the scene with Laoghaire, followed by the oath to Claire, followed by the knife / sex scene were all “off.” I just don’t think the Jamie from the books would hold Laoghaire's boobs and then yell sorry when she runs away. It totally contradicts the argument in the book when Jamie says they’d been at the castle less than an hour and he’s exhausted and dirty but Claire’s accusing him of running off to seduce a 16 year old. Then in the book Claire says she has no claim on him and he can do what he wants, which is when he explodes because marriage is a claim on him. So how could he go to the river and touch Laoghaire’s boobs? I just don’t get it. (3) By losing Claire’s POV at Leoch (thinking that Jaime just married her for the money and is off with Laoghaire), we miss out on a major moment of insecurity for Claire. Instead Claire is the strong rational one throughout, which is not how it is in the book. There needs to be more balance between Jamie and Claire. His strength and pride is missing in the show. (4) The knife seemed so strange – again, I really think the Jamie from the books would’ve had a reaction to the knife during sex. He wouldn’t have been so submissive in that situation. I didn’t mind the sex, but I absolutely agree that there was a reason for the rough sex in the book and something that clicked in Claire’s mind when she realized that this man would not be denied. I feel like it is key that Claire realizes that she is attracted to this strong, proud, somewhat dominating man. That's what's attractive to me about Jamie -- he's not a modern man. He's a bloody Scottish highlander who is just enough bad guy for all the right reasons.
I actually liked the way the make-up sex scene was filmed. I think it was important given the timing of things in the show. This was the first time they have sex after she was nearly raped by the red coat deserters in the glen AND then again by Black Jack Randall within about a 24hr period. And, then, right afterwards is the big fight between J & C and the spanking. She suffered physically 3 times in a row with little time in-between. She NEEDED to take back control of her body after all of that and the way she does that psychologically is by holding the knife to Jamie during sex to tell him HE will not be the one to mistreat her body. I think it was important for Claire to be able to get back into the saddle with Jamie, so to speak. If they would have had Jamie dominating Claire at this point, I think it wouldn't have been realistic because of what she went through so recently. The tv timeline is so much more compressed.
Oooh, those are some good points! I totally didn't realize this was the first time they'd been together since the redcoat deserters in the glen...interesting! That seems so long ago!
Yes, if you piece everything together the timeline looks like this: 1. Claire is almost raped by the deserters in the glen (sometimes in morning or mid-day) 2. The Mackenzie group rides away for an unknown amount of time (based on Claire's comments, its still the same day) 3. Jamie leaves Claire in the forest with Willie (sometime in the afternoon of 1st day) 4. Claire goes to Craigh na Dun (still afternoon) 5. Claire is carted off to Fort William / Willie finds Jamie after his meeting with Horrocks (still daylight) 5. Claire is almost raped by Black Jack / Jamie and group arrive at Fort William to rescue Claire (night time) 6. The group ride away from Fort William (night and into the next morning) 7. Jamie and Claire have fight near stream (morning of the 2nd day) 8. Group rides to the Inn (afternoon of 2nd day) 9. Jamie spanks Claire (night time of 2nd day)
I'm not sure what I think of the Laoghaire side story in the episode. I wouldn't put it past book Laoghaire to do such a thing (off scene, obviously). I don't think Jamie would have said nothing happened if something like that did. So, I do think this is invented for the show.
My issue with this storyline is that now Jamie knows more about Laoghaire (that she's conniving and that she was the one who placed the ill-wish), it makes it less likely that she will show up in the future seasons the way that she does in the books. Part of the reason she shows up in the future books is because Claire never communicates to Jamie what Laoghaire does at Leoch. With that said, I do think Jamie has always had a soft spot/weakness for Laoghaire that isn't the deep love he has with Claire, but is "something." I think we see that in his temptation here. I think it is possible, as someone said...maybe Ron or Matt in the podcast...that if Claire had never shown up that J & L would have gotten together soon. They actually filmed the scene with J & L kissing and Meril fought to not have them kiss. Ron thought Jamie pulling back after kissing L would have shown more will power (man's perspective of having to stop after starting). But, I think Meril knew that to the female audience, it would have been a betrayal of C had J kissed L...even if a small one. Yes, C was mad at him and yes he wasn't sure if it would work out...but it was too early for him to "give up" on C. Luckily, Meril won that debate. I would have NOT wanted to see J kiss L.
I think Loaghaire will show up in the future and marry Jamie, of course we know it is a different Jamie spirit wise, men are much more forgiving then women that is why Jamie does not understand why Claire is so mad at him. He would be punished and accept it and move on most men do. Women have a tendency to hold on to things a little longer. Hope that does not offend anyone just an observation.
Thanks, lasses, for your recaps. Ron & Terry & Company have done an outstanding job.
I don't see Jamie as "submissive" -- he's a young man newly married, still feeling his way. His heritage tells him he must beat his headstrong wife into submission. But, he's had time to figure out that might not be the way to a happy marriage. Remember that his mother died when he was very young, so he hasn't had a home view of a mature marriage. Also that he thinks human sex is like horses. (Hmmm aside -- did Colum thrash Letitia to make her couple with Dougal??? or did he just order her to it??) Before BJR rapes Jenny and takes Jamie to Fort William, there are no married people at Lallybroch to model marriage. Would a submissive man undertake a dangerous rescue? Yeah, we know, BJR has her. All the more reason to let her reap and hang -- if he's submissive. So, no, I think not.
Jamie clearly wants Claire -- is addicted to her now. And, he's an honorable man -- wants his marriage to work -- to Laoghaire's fury. He doesn't know how to bridge the gap between them -- to his credit, he wants to, wants Claire to want him as well. And that's why the fireplace declaration and subsequent fealty oath is so heart-felt. It also sets the stage for the knife at the throat scene. Claire re-claiming her personal power after being manhandled by deserters, BJR, Jamie spanking. This is dangerous sex here-- but Jamie could have disarmed her if he'd wanted to. Might have gotten a wee bit of a skratch, though.
As a single woman, I didn't find the sex scenes gratuitous either here or in Wedding episode. Claire has a strong sex drive -- she said in first ep that she and Frank could always reconnect through sex. And here she's married to a strapping young Scot who's clearly always ready ("ravenous -- oh you meant food...")
I started reading the series twenty-some years ago -- they saw me through some rough patches -- so I escaped with Jamie & Claire. I haven't read Outlander in years and am waiting to pick the books up again so as not to color my thinking on the tv series. Given Season 2 is said to not be available until 2016, the next Droughtlander starting in June will give me the push to not only binge on Season 1 again, but once I've settled down, to reread Outlander.
I didn't mean to turn this into "true confessions". I gave up trying to watch Game of Thrones partway through my first viewing. Outlander I go back to again and again.
I agree, we have to remember how young Jamie is. The writers may be wanting to highlight how he matures through their marriage. It will be more interesting if his character develops into "the King of Men" rather than begins there. Hopefully ( please, please, please!) there's lots of time to watch their characters grow!
I think it's weird that you hated the knife-pulling, but you wanted the part where Jamie basically rapes her to stay? Thank God, they didn't stick with that. Hated it in the book, and it took a long time for me to go back to it, when I first read it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'm glad they gave Claire the power because even as a book reader, I wanted Jamie to pay more for strapping her in the first place. If I hadn't read the books and I'd seen the strapping, I would have been mad as hell, so actually giving Claire the knife was the right choice, and helped balance the strapping. The writers can't just be about the readers, they need to be mindful of new and evolved audiences who have a real problem with that kind of thing. I already saw many people who swore that they couldn't continue to watch after seeing the scene where Claire was on the floor and Jamie was pulling her to him. The optics of that made a lot of people on Twitter uncomfortable.
"She was taken and she liked it" It was forced seduction, and new viewers would have fled the show, especially after the strapping, if that scene had been included, because it was basically rape.
You kept talking about how this wasn't the story, but the changes that they have made so far have been great, and will appeal more to a younger audience, not just the women who read the books twenty years ago.
In the book I was so frustrated that they didn't know that the ill-will came come from Leg Hair, so I was so glad that Jamie figured it out on the show.
Anon, I have to say that I was always the same way about Jamie not knowing about Leghair. I think I was mad that Claire didn't tell him; I'll have to reread some of my posts to remember. (Lorddddddd the disappearing memory!)
DeleteLove your comments. Who wants to be agreed with 24/7? Zzzz. So thanks. :)
So was I,we'll se where all this will go later!
DeleteI'm so glad you guys are back. I love Claire being strong and opinionated that's Claire, but I hope Jaime will grow a pair and not let her dominate this relationship. In the books they are BOTH strong and they RESPECT each other. I thought the beating scene was done very well, I was little worried, Sam and Cait did a wonderful job. I'm with Carol, it's the WAY IT WAS, get over it already!
ReplyDeleteRight, Libby?? That's the thing that drives me nuts. Like it or not, it happened. It was heinous - and it happened. My mother in law is watching The Ten Commandments. Slaves are being beaten. Should we omit that, too? Because it was unpleasant? (NOT that this old film was the pinnacle of actuality. Oy.) Tell the story so history won't repeat. (Lorddddd...choke me in the shallow water before I get too deep!) :)
DeleteSorry, I can't make it to Monday Night MOP Chat, but I just want to say that, I've watched episode 9 now 3 times. I feel that this is Jamie's metamorphosis. We get an insight of him on the inside, and how much it is gonna change Jamie on the outside. He starts off as a cry baby and at the end he has turned into a MAN!
DeleteSo excited to watch another MOP braking it down video! Anyhoo...was pumped yesterday morning when I checked Starz On Demand and found I could watch episode 9 already! Ok, so I watched 3 times yesterday, but I swear I dont have a problem. Lol. My immediate thought was...OMG, I loved it! But then i was like....wait, what? That was supposed to be MY 'canna be gentle about it' scene with the 2 rings! I agree, Carol, I'm disappointed so much of that was changed...BUT I'm rereading Outlander right now so I'll just have to relive that scene on the page instead...again! Hehe ;) I also agree with you guys that the sex scenes can be a 'bit much'. I can't believe I'm saying that because I LOVE Diana's sex scenes but I dont need to SEE it all...some things are best left to the imagination, ya ken? I actually never watch anything with this much sex/nudity in it, but HELLO this is my beloved Outlander and I'm not going anywhere! Lol:). One last thought...it has always bothered me that Jamie pledges to never to raise his hand to Claire again, but she continues to slap, hit, shove, and knee him in the balls right up through book 8! Not fair! Thoughts on that?
ReplyDeleteJust like today, a guy hits a woman - as in slap - not punch and he is a criminal but women can do anything. Slap, punch, kick, whatever and the guy is less than a man if he complains.
DeleteWHAT A GREAT POINT, Heather! AND Anon! Why is it OK for Claire to slap Jamie and throw objects at his head? No one is complaining about that!
DeleteFew ever do complain about that. But I do. The physical and verbal abuse that Claire heaped on Jamie at the river before the strapping felt more like spousal abuse than the actual strapping scene. There was NO abuse psychology involved in the strapping - in Jamie's mind it was about justice. However, I personally felt there WAS abuse psychology in Claire's words and actions. That continues clear through the entire series - and Bree is the same way with Roger.
DeleteVerity
Verity,
DeleteI feel exactly the same way! I always thought Claire was way off base talking to Jamie like that. It showed a total lack of respect.
Verity,
DeleteI feel exactly the same way! I always thought Claire was way off base talking to Jamie like that. It showed a total lack of respect.
Well, I have to say that I think that Carol and Tracy are "spot on". I thought the forgiving scene was tremendous, anything after that was confusing to me. I missed the surprise of everyone at Leoch, I don't understand the logic behind the "LongHair" scene, and the intimate scene at the end, was just not the Jaime and Claire that is so wonderful in the book. I understand changing scenes due to timing, etc, and I have not minded any changes so far, but I had the exact same reaction. I had a houseful of men watching the Final Four Basketball and the wives were watching Outlander. It was unanimous between us. The guys asked us right away, well...?? And we were I think without comment at first. Just too different from the story. We so much loved Diana's version so much better. The ending with Jaime's comment, was just not what we were hoping to see. Hopeful for the next Saturday.
ReplyDeleteREMEMBER PAOLI, MAGGIE!!! I am so jealous that you were all watching together near where I grew up; Tracey and I should come watch with you sometime! (LOL Can you imagine? You guys sit down to watch Outlander and Tracey and I show up at the door with wine and a cheese plate. ROFLMAO.)
DeleteI am glad to see your post because it makes me feel like I'm not crazy. And as I said in the video, I can't do anything but love the series; it's so well done/acted/written, yada. It's just that it was my favorite scene in the book...so of course I'm going to be disappointed that it's different. And no biggie, right? Canna WAIT for next week!!! :)
Carol, we have a growing group here. You and Tracy and whomever would be welcome of course! We had plenty of libations including Sweet Tea Cosmos, along with wine and whiskey of course. I read through the comments, but still think the context was just not right with Laoghaire. The hallway scene should have been enough including him saying he took a vow and perhaps her showing more anger etc., wanting him or thinking he wanted her...etc. Also, the Leoch interchange with Column and Leticia was awkward. I missed seeing Jaime carry Claire in etc. I also did not like Jaime apologizing to Laoghaire. He is just not coming across as strong as in the books. There were just some really wonderful interchanges between Claire and Jaime to begin this amazing showing of strength needed to love someone, that I really missed. TV timing is one thing, but... The dirk scene should have been as in the book. It would have taken the forgiven scene to an even higher level of perfection.The timing during an intimate scene, just wasn't the same. We had about 12 ladies, and interestingly, we all had the same comments while watching the episode.... Maybe the next episode will help put things in perspective. The changes were rather dramatic and we are quite spoiled having such a great author. You ladies are doing a stupendous job and I look forward to reading the recaps and everyone's comments. We came on board with Outlander with the Starz programming. We have since read all the books and are enjoying the TV version . I think it is the best love story ever written and I am just hoping they keep it special and not be overly concerned with ratings. R. Moore even commented that Starz mgmt. has significant faith in the story because of the fan base and have told them to slow down and take their time. I think the unusually large and faithful fan base will take care of ratings. Of course keeping Sam on board will be most helpful! I think they signed 7 year contracts. The frustration of course is the waiting.... 3 or 4 months is ok, almost a year, is long. Thanks again for all your time and effort! it is greatly appreciated.
DeleteHi Tracey and Carol, thank you for the recap! I love to hear your viewpoint on the show. I thought last night’s episode was very well done. I have just a couple of comments in addition to what others have said. First, I do feel like the series is still missing some part of Jamie’s know-how and confidence. For instance, in the rescue scene, I felt that Jamie would have had more to say instead of standing there while Randall taunted him. But I did love the exchange where Randall asked if he could see the scars on Jamie’s back (how SICK is that) and Jamie said “it would be the last thing you’d ever see”. Next, I liked how the episode started to show Jamie’s leadership skills in convincing Colum to give the gold back to Dougal. I also loved how they showed him thinking over the situation with Claire and deciding not to follow the traditional ways (promising never to raise a hand to her again). Last – the sex scene at the castle. I did not enjoy seeing Claire’s hand on Jamie’s throat and then holding the knife on him. But then she threw the knife to the side and to me it felt like she had got the last of her anger out and they could move on and be closer than ever. I preferred the way this scene was handled in the series vs. the book (sorry Carol). Anyway, just my thoughts. I’m looking forward to next week’s episode!
ReplyDeleteLisa D.
No worries, Lisa!! I'd rather you be happy about the episode! I'm just still living in my literary "I canna be gentle about it" Diana-written world (and I read that she loved the ep, too!)...but I canna wait for next week!! :)
DeleteHey Girls! Nice job on the video. Felt compelled to comment on some of your observations (after having watched 109 approx. 109 times since yesterday…lol. Apologies in advance for the length. Here goes…First, CAN’T BELIEVE you guys forgot to mention when Dougal admits he’s Hamish’s baby daddy! I was like: “Holy Sh*t! Can’t believe he just did that to Colum’s face and in front of Jamie and Ned! Just an observation.
ReplyDeleteOn to “the fight.” First KUDOS to Sam and Cait. Love the scene (yes, that was my fav, even over the hot mondey sex at the end). Loved watching Sam transition from a furious “You foul-mouthed bitch! Ye will nae speak to me that way” 18th century clansman to a crumbling, scared to death he was going watch Claire be raped and killed in front of his eyes by BJR (and probably get himself and his men hanged in the bargain as well) adoring husband in the span of 5 minutes. He brought me to tears. I do think they could have dragged it out a bit longer (Sorry, but girlfriend should have begged his forgiveness a few more times, once she realized what kind of cojones it took for him to go get her). And I agree, the “falling in love” line was a little too precious. But loved the scene anyway.
On to the spanking and make-up sex…I think they handled it as well as they could have by trying to lighten it up and make it almost funny (and showing Claire giving as good as she got). IMO, they didn’t follow the book re: the make-up sex because a VIEWING audience would never get the nuance in the books. I re-read that passage last night and Jamie is hurting her at one point, which she tells him. He basically says “Too bad, I plan to f…k you into submission, woman.” As things progress, Claire finds that she kinda likes it rough and joins in the fun. I think Tracey hit the nail on the head….all viewers (non book-readers) would have seen was a brute that beat his wife with a belt and then practically raped her for not obeying him. And then her kind of liking it. That would not have gone over well AT ALL. So yeah, I get why they didn’t do the sex scene like the book. NOBODY wants to hate Jamie Fraser. As for pulling the knife while she was doing her Annie Oakley impersonation…not sure I liked that either. I agree that it was a way to balance out the power…but let’s face it, if she wanted a legit promise from him not to beat her again, that wasn’t the time, as his attention was…ah…elsewhere. Carol, I’m with you on not seeing Jamie as submissive. Hoping that as the series progresses, they will shift that a bit. Padawan’s ready to be a Jedi.
Lastly, Laoghaire. I’m ok with the way they’re setting up what is to come in the next episode or two by showing her as the woman scorned, but it will be problematic if the series goes all the way through the books (ye ken what I mean re: Jamie and Leghair in the future). I did not like how they changed the whole “ill wish” sequence (and was frankly ROFLMAO at the Scooby Doo comments!!). Not sure why they changed that. In the books, Claire never tells Jamie about L’s part in her “trials”, which allows for Jamie’s horrendous decision much later in the series (something he probably would not have done had he known L’s true nature and what she had done to Claire). Wonder how they’re going to address that (maybe they’re just not thinking that far ahead).
Channeling Carrie Bradshaw: I couldn’t help but wonder how the episode would have played out if a woman had written and/or directed it (instead of Matt Roberts and Richard Clark).
I was thinking that same thing with Laoghaire, Janis. If they set her up as the villain and Jamie is aware of it, how are they going to explain future events?
DeleteI would like to think that this would cause major changes in season 3. Seriously that was the hardest part for me to deal with in Voyager. I don't really see that changing though. Maybe, Jamie will know about the ill wish, but not anything later on? (really trying to be vague and non spoiler-y)
DeleteHey Anon & Heather, Not sure where they're going with her. (I hate talking in circles...so I'll just say **SPOILER ALERT** FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T READ THE BOOKS**) Dinna read any further.
DeleteI just can't see how they can have Jamie "forget" about this (perhaps, you're right Anon, maybe he wont' know she's the one that sets Claire up with Geillis, and he'll only think she left the creepy Blair Witch voodoo doll, and write it off as her being young and hurt). They kind of have to work around that because there is NO WAY Jamie would marry her if he knew she tried to have Claire killed). Should be interesting!
And yes, we totally forgot to comment on the wee Hamish sitch! Who was in the room at that point--just Jamie and Ned? It's likely that Ned already knew, and Jamie always suspected, so maybe it's not as big of a reveal in terms of the other characters finding out--but a definite confirmation to us...
DeleteJanis you are SPOT ON about the fact that they made the episode the way they had to, girl. And I'm thrilled you don't agree with me all over the place. That would be way boring. :) And ROFLMAO I forgot about Scooby Doo! I haven't watched the video...but now I think I may have to. LOL!
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ReplyDeleteHi, Me again. What was the deal with BJR inviting Jamie to "join in" and his comment about wondering why any man would want to get pleasure with a woman? Again, maybe because of the male writer & director? Thought that was too big a spoiler (for one thing) and for another a bit misleading. Maybe I'm wrong, but I never thought of BJR as necessarily being a homosexual; He clearly has impotence issues with women, but that's a separate issue. Wasn't there some mention in the books of him raping a few women in his life? I always saw him as a sociopath who gets off on hurting people, male and female.
ReplyDeleteIn the books, Jamie tells Claire around this time about BJR's proposition at Fort William (following the "it's personal with him" line), but it's missing in the show. So maybe the "join in" line was to take the place of that. With regards to his sexuality, I think BJR would fall as a 4 on the Kinsey Scale (Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual), but he definitely open to anyone.
DeleteThanks! I had forgotten about that proposition. Think you/re right that he rolls both ways. Hope they are able to get it across that he's just a sadistic SOB whose behaviour has nothing to do with sex.
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ReplyDeleteCouple of things I avoided saying in the video but will do so here...
ReplyDeleteSPOILERS FROM THE REST OF THE BOOK COMING....
• So as anyone who's read the books knows, the main reason I did NOT like the "I was falling in love" thing is that the first time that JAMMF tells Claire he loves her is MUCH later in the books and is one of my favorite parts. I know telling us the viewer is not the same as telling Claire--but honestly, I really felt like it wasn't necessary to say at all. It's written all over your face, dude. No worries. :-)
• Who else was FREAKED OUT by the foreshadowing of Claire going "Jamie, just get out of here" when BJR was holding the knife to her throat and Jamie had just come in? The fact that they will be in opposite roles later just gave me chills...
OMG, Tracey, I was exactly the same way when Claire told Jamie to get out (with BJR)....my stomach lurched!
DeleteTracey, I was remembering when Jamie said to Claire "You'll do" when they got back to Castle Leoch! Definitely far from sticky-sweet!
ReplyDeleteLisa D.
And did you notice episode 9 started the same as episode 1? "Strange the things you remember..." Or something like that. First in Claire's POV and now Jamie's...verra nice! (Actually that was in the Ron Moore interview after the episode. I wouldn't have picked up on that til a few more viewings ;))
ReplyDeleteFirst time commenter--I have watched every one of your recaps and I must say I was looking forward to your reactions almost as much as watching this episode. You are the best! Thanks for putting yourself out there especially when you are tired. As usual spot on with your observations: too much voiceover, lovely acting in forgiveness scene (more powerful by far than the sex scence imho), hilarious scooby doo comment. I think this would have played out differently with a woman writer. A little too much "Game of Thrones" style gratuitous leave nothing to the imagination style for me. The knife thing felt too staged to me but the fealty scene with the knife was touching. I hope we get more women writers in the upcoming episodes. Thanks again for your smart and funny commentary.
ReplyDelete"I was looking forward to your reactions almost as much as watching this episode."
DeleteAnon, that seriously just made my day. Tracey and I were exhausted making that video, after having hellish days on Thursday after the premiere (NOT that we would EVER complain; we know how incredibly lucky we were to be there!) :)
After making it, I slept 3 hours and got up at 3AM to drive to Florida from NJ with my family, with full intentions of working on our interview post/videos on what should have been an 18 hour car ride (but ended up being 22!) Well...I had laptop power issues and ended up doing the bulk of it today...while my family went about their Easter.
(Let it be known that Tracey offered to do the editing but nooooo...I thought it would be a breeze. HA!)
So...my point...you have NO idea how absolutely appreciative I am to hear you say something so very kind. I am seriously tearing up reading your comment. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We look forward to making more videos for awesome Outlander buds like you. :)
Thanks for your reply Carol and for your hard work on Easter. Really enjoying the red carpet interviews. I feel like I know you and Tracey because of your friendly and open style of communication. I think Starz should put you guys on the payroll! I would love it if third sister Jill made a guest appearance in an upcoming recap. Holidays must be so fun with your family. Keep up the good work Carol and Tracey!
DeleteThe knife thing works for me. Even though it takes place while the are having sex, it is in no way sex play. Claire needs to have a moment to show that she is Jamie's equal. Jamie's oath is nice and all, but, from Claire's perspective, there is nothing but his word to hold him to it. By pulling the knife on him, she expresses that she can hold him accountable to his oath. Why we know Jamie and trust him to stand by his word, this is important to establish their equality as partners.
ReplyDeleteI guess I don't see how the sex scene is any more pornographic than the wedding night. Yes it was a little "rougher", but as far as what was shown, I don't see the difference. I no almost nothing about filming/producing, but this episode defiantly showed Claire differently, as it was in Jamie's perspective. The camera lingered on Claire a lot longer than in the wedding episode, so maybe that was why some people perceive it more as pornography, because it is the male lens that typically exists in porn. Despite that connection though, I still think this scene built the story and their relationship just as it did in the wedding episode. Jamie and Claire often express themselves and connect through sex, and I see that in this scene. I love the way it is written in the books; but, this scene was needed to show that Jamie and Claire's relationship has its foundation in mutual respect, not power and dominance.
Starz is not shying away from showing us anything in the show, just as Diana does not shy away from writing anything in the book. We don't need to read about Jamie peeing in the chamber pot and we don't need to see Claire's boobs, but it adds to the story. I'm also a little peeved by how many times I here people complain about how much screen time Claire's boobs get, but no one has said a thing about Jamie's butt. Boobs are not inherently sexual, and in those intimate bedroom scenes you would have to be almost distractedly intentional to keep the covered up. Who keeps a sheet pulled over the chest after sex with their husband? I don't think anyone on here has made a big deal over this, but just getting these thoughts off my chest. (Hehe)
Ain't gonna lie, Anon...the "off my chest" pun made me giggle. And I needed the giggle. So thanks. :)
DeleteOK, I will try to make this short and to the point.
ReplyDelete1. Thank you ladies for your unpaid dedication to these great books. It's like pissing your pants in black pants, gives you a warm feeling but no one notices, so I wanted to put that thank you out there.
2. Please don't hold back on your thought in fear of spoilers. If anything it helps the first timers into the deeper understanding of the scenes and will give a new appreciation into the story....don't hold back! We want to explore how what happens now relates to what is going to happen.
3. YES Horrock was another smoking hotty McScotty. WE WANT MORE pounding on table.
4. Spanking scene was brilliantly done and there will be haters...who cares.. don't read/watch history if you have a issues. Not everything pukes rainbows.
5. I thought the naked bodice and titty grab with Laoghaire was a "rolling my eyes" moment but anything that will get my husband to watch it with me..sigh.
6. The make up sex scene..OMG I LOVED IT! Claire showed him who is master fer sur. The booty grinding shot was a "am I really seeing this" moment but then it is those shocking moments that leave us so fulfilled later. It had to be raunchy and powerful for Claire to be taken serious. She HAD to be in control otherwise it never would have worked on the screen and the time limitations.
7. The bad spell discovery was a bit Rut Roh...and didn't work.
Recap of my recap of your recap of E9;
This episode was about ying/yang, Claire/Laoghaire McDoggle/Collum Jamie/Frank Easy/Challenge passion/anger love/hate ...thus creating a balance through opposites.
Love every second of your comments and review of our review. "Not everything pukes rainbows" is so brilliant, I dinna know what tae DO w'myself.
DeletePLEASE keep commenting, Running with Scissors; you are one hilarious and refreshing Outlander bud. :)
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ReplyDeleteOooopsie, I hit refresh and it duplicated my above post.
Delete“She really draws her boundary line. When we have that other intense sex scene, I think that that’s her saying, ‘Look, I will love you with every fiber of my being, but not more than I love myself, and as long as you respect me, then we’re good.’”
ReplyDelete— Caitriona Balfe
Just saw this quote from Caitriona. I'm not sure what interview it was from, but I thought it sums up Claire's POV in the sex scene perfectly. And who knows better than Caitriona?
Very good
DeleteGood Point! I wasn't offended by the knife incident; just think it would have been better if they had followed the books (where she threatens him, then he takes the dirk and makes his oath to her). Not sure it was as effective during sex. This is really a guy question, but wouldn't he have lost his erection when she stuck the knife in his throat? Just wondering. Never threatened a man's life while having sex with him, so I have nothing to go on here...
DeleteYes Janis! I mean, if anything, I would think that pulling the knife would kill the mood a bit! Also as an aside, I'm kicking myself because i wanted to pull a clip of "he's taking the knife out of the cheese! Do you think he wants some cheese?" from Arthur to stick in that part of the video and totally forgot :-( (Carol would have LOLOLed at that...)
DeleteLOL Janis. Honestly, I wasn't offended by anything in the episode. I just didn't care for what I'm now calling the "eff Jamie to death" scene. LOL! I totally get where Claire's coming from though. :)
DeleteCarol, I am right there with you not wanting my Jamie man toned down a notch. All my life I have been surrounded by strong, intelligent, able-bodied men. Heroic men have a code of honor they follow, are true gentlemen and are not big on excuse making. Jamie is a 24 year old hero in the making. This is why I am attracted to and have loved all things Outlander. Diana Gabaldon has written intensely and with great care about the complexities of a masculine hero...in a way that I, as a female, can enjoy. I won't go nuts about the subtle changes of storyline because frankly, I am just too grateful for the show. But please, please (out in t.v land) don't water this guy down. Claire loves Jamie for the man he is and will become. She's gone through war and will again. She knows what a hero looks like, has decided she will go through life married to one (not an easy task for a woman) She is naturally heroic as well. Gosh, I love these characters and I am so happy to have a place to share that enthusiasm. Thank you both for the fantastic fun videos!!
ReplyDeleteNicely said, Susan!
DeleteHi Guys - This is your Auntie Lamb,
ReplyDeleteIt is so great to see you back in business again. We know what a job producing these videos must be for you (and an extra chore just now with TartanAffair, Easter, and travel) and we really appreciate you for doing it.
I have a number of comments on the episode and your recap:
- love your 92Y drinking glasses, Carol
- Tovah Feldshuh is a wonderful actress! Have you seen her many appearances on "Law and Order"? Also, she has a one-woman stage show "Golda's Balcony" about Golda Meir that is epic; she has taken it all over the world; there are scenes on YouTube
Now to Episode 9 ----
- So; the "mystery Blonde" was Leery .... more on that/her later
- I think they use The Voiceover way too much in this series; BUT I could listen to Sam Heughan read the phone book as long as he does it in Highland Scots and someone will produce it
- Anyone notice that in the kilting/dressing scene Jamie is pinning a Mackenzie brooch on his plaid??? I thought he didn't wear them
- Remember that this episode was produced out of sequence. Thus, this was the FIRST sex scene that Sam and Cait shot; and it may be the source of several continuity glitches. Besides the Mackenzie brooch; there's Claire's wedding rings (both of the ones she wears do not look like the ones she wears in later episodes), Mrs Fitz's wardrobe, Leery's hair, Rupert's hair/beard, yada, yada, yada. I'll find more on my 80th or 90th viewing... It was written and directed by men, as opposed to the wedding episode, which was helmed by women. Interesting.
- I think the actor who plays Horrocks should play Stephen Bonnet if the series gets that far. This was a helluvan audition, don't you think?
- In the book Jamie DID kill people in the rescue of Claire. He took the pistol off a sentry he killed on the way into the fort. The sentry fired his gun at Jamie and missed. That's how Jamie got the gun and why it was unloaded. Also, I'm pretty sure that no water was involved in or around the book rescue.
- They're laying the Black Jack/sadism stuff on with a trowel. But I don't know how well they'll be able to explain the nature of his "performance" issues going forward. Pretty sure he can't get it up unless he knows he's scaring or inflicting pain on his "victim," whether male or female. That's why Jamie pissed him off so badly at the flogging because he wouldn't cry out or beg for mercy; and why Jack didn't get aroused with Claire until she screamed. This stuff gets conflated into a meaningless argument over whether BJR is gay or not. I don't think it matters; although he does seem to have a strong fixation on Jamie, for whatever reason.
- I have more ... but I have to break away for a bit. Back with stuff on Leery,
Hi Auntie Lamb!! I have only watched the ep once (so far)...so I am loving all your points. THANKS for noticing my 92Y glass! :) REALLY interesting point about this being the first sex scene they shot. Um...to quote Jamie Fraser, "holy god." CAN YOU IMAGINE?!? Holy crap, I have to chew on this a bit. I didn't realize that!!!!
DeleteAuntie Lamb is Back!
ReplyDeleteYes, Carol - I remember an interview that Sam gave to The Hollywood Reporter back about the time of the wedding episode where he said that he and Cait had filmed some "intense" sex scenes for episodes 9 AND 10, and that these had gotten them comfortable with doing such scenes going forward. I have a theory about what we may see in that regard in episode 10 (for later).
- The Jamie/Claire "forgiven" fight scene is fabulous! I think it's the best scene in this episode, and it may prove out to be one of my favorite scenes in all of season 1 (up there with "Your mother had the sweetest smile" scene from "The Wedding") Fabulous acting -- it's great to see Sam, in particular, let loose.
- And yes, I'm certain I've heard the actors - and Diana G - describe it as an audition scene that was used in Jamie/Claire "chemistry" tests. I especially remember hearing DG recall seeing Sam grab Cait and shout "You DO belong to me!"
- I'm with you on the "falling in love" part of the voiceover at the end of the scene. I would have been fine with it saying "I could have forgiven her anything(full stop)" That's because I LOVE the scene at Lallybroch where J tells C that he married her because he wanted her and she asks, "Do you mean you married me out of love?" while chasing him around the room, throwing things at him, knocking him to the floor, and laughing.
- I agree with what's been said up to now about the context of the "spanking" scene. It WAS a creature of the 18th century; and we're looking at it with 21st century values. BIG disconnect. Also, I don't think the point's yet been made that it's an act committed by a most beloved - perhaps THE most beloved - character in that genre of fiction. That's a major hurdle to overcome.
- I can't believe Tracey's never seen "The Quiet Man"! See it, Tracey, see it. The granddaddy of all spanking scenes!!
- It was Willie who was the character who let Claire get away and who dropped the dime on Dougal and gave the gold back to Colum.
- Ah, Leery ... I believe the whole point of involving her in this way in this episode is to set her up as a villainess going forward. We know the "Whyyyyy" and "Feel my Boobs" scenes weren't in the books. Here's why I think they're doing it; NOBODY KNOWS HOW FAR THIS SERIES IS GONNA GO. We all love the books and know what happens in them, but who's to say how far the TV series will take us. We can hope, but ratings are everything. Thus we need to have a bad guy (or gal) to explain the non-BJR bad stuff that happens for now. That's old leg-hair!
I have more stuff on the knife scene, other sexy times, and the issues raised by an as-yet-uncertain future for the series. But, later.
Yeyyyy Auntie Lamb!! Glad to see you! :)
DeleteFirst time commenter here Ladies,I do enjoyed reading all your comments,loved ep9.,has read all of DG's eight books,& to be honest I like Claire better in the tv adaptation somehow Claire comes across as a bit too blunt & opinionated,but then(spoiler) in Voyager she is the one showing her great love for Jamie ,but do hope in the next ep's it will also be shown what an honourable loving man he is.I didnt mind the change with Loaghaire,it showed her in a more realistic way her clingy,manipulative self,also showed Jamies as a real man.,not just the King of man as he is in my mind,Ithought the spanking scene was handled excellently,& the make up rough sex was so much better than the book,it was a bit deep&heavy for me in the book,Sam acting was brilliant in this ep.&Cait also!
ReplyDeleteWELCOME zsuzsip!! Thanks for commenting - and we hope you stick around and comment some more! :)
DeleteAh & thank you Carol for your blog!♥
ReplyDeletePeople act like spanking scenes are something new. Am I the only one who grew up watching John Wayne and Maureen Ohara? The only problem I have with this adaptation of the book is the order of events. I think it would have been better if Claire had made her knife threat before Jamie made his vow with the same weapon. The way it played out on TV made it seem that Claire doesn't take his vow as seriously as he does. It also makes her a bit too dominant.
ReplyDeleteCarol, I am totally with you on that last sex scene. At the end I was left feeling that Jamie was totally kitty-whipped. I am expecting Episode 10 to open with Jamie and Murtaugh sitting in a salon getting mani-pedis.
DeleteBy reversing the Vow and the Knife scenes they totally belittled the grave importance of the vow that Jamie made. By combining them with the sex scene it felt to me like he was trading his honor for sex. In the book, Jamie began as the aggressor and then Claire levelled the playing field with a dose of scratching and biting, with the end result being a balance of power that went on to become a hallmark characteristic of their relationship. By making Claire the aggressor in that sex scene they turned Jamie's line about not being able to possess her soul without losing his own into a cheesy one-liner. That revelation from the power struggle was a significant insight from Jamie that contributed to Claire's realization that Jamie understood her in ways that Frank never had. This scene was a pivotal point in Claire's decision to stay with Jamie.
What I was left with at the end of this episode was that Jamie is willing to sacrifice everything in order to get nookie and all Claire has to do in order to control him is to freeze him out of bed. The fact that she did not pause her pelvis when she held the knife to his heart but kept grinding on him instead reinforced the vibe that she was using her vagina as a weapon. That, to me, is a shallow mockery of the relationship that had been forged between them by that point. Bleh!
Verity
THANK YOU, CAROL! We watch The Quiet Man every St. Patrick's Day with a wee dram. I know it by heart. The other day, someone asked me how far something was, and I told them, "It's just a good stretch of the legs!" :)
DeleteVERITY - whoa. You should be making videos because that was stellar. That's the kind of commentary I wish I could pull forth from my mouth...but instead, all that comes out is "I didn't really care for it." LOL NICE JOB - I'm with ya all the way. I have to go reread your comment to let it sink in. Thanks. PS - ROFLMAO re: mani pedis.
DeleteThank you Antie Lamb for bringing up the "Claire hair continuity issue". I know it is probably nitpicky but it was making me nuts. Her hair is long, then short, then long, then short, and so on!
ReplyDeleteMy first time to leave a comment I have listened to all of your reviews they are wonderful and make me laugh and smile. Thank you for all your hard work Starz realizes what they have in their fan base supporters hope they allow you on the red carpet always!
ReplyDeleteEpisode 9
I am watching the series with my husband who is not a book reader and I do not tell him anything. He told me in episode 6 that BJR had a thing for men when he shaved Hawkins I tried to look innocent he just laughed and said I get it. The incident with Loaghaire upset me tremendously but my husband a non-book reader was upset with Claire called her bull headed, stubborn and selfish and said Jamie was at a crossroads with the fact he may have sacrificed his marriage by the beating. My husband had no issue with Loaghaire and said Jamie showed great character by turning her away so Ron your forgiven but do not do it again and had they kissed I would have smashed the tv sorry lost it for a sec. lol
I have to agree that maybe they do not know how far the series will go and I want to see all the books so I may have to tolerate changes like I have a choice going to watch no matter what. Maybe Jamie won’t marry Loaghaire we can still have Marselli without a marriage to Loahaire I can dream no!
I was complaining to my husband that Jamie is such a good man and loves Claire so and the show is not showing that, he disagreed with me and said he feels that Jamie loves her and would do anything for her and did this episode. He turned his back on his culture and changed what he believed was tradition, just and right, hard for a man to do and Claire has not done that yet. I love everyone's opinion and love the Outlander family we can all disagree and still come together it’s great. Just like Claire and Jamie. You guys all rock and loved the video, all the comments and the sharing of your experience at the preview in New York watched it on Periscope. Have a sun shinny day!
From Auntie Lamb -
DeleteLoved your post - and your hubby is a verra perceptive laddie! Especially impressed with his perspective on Jamie. So glad you chimed in!
I Hey thanks for putting your husbands comments in. It was good to hear a man being explained by a man! Ask him to watch other episodes with you!
DeleteI'm so glad I watched your re-cap (just stumbled across your site). I have been thinking all along that this Jamie (while smoking hot) is not my Jamie. My thoughts on the episode:
ReplyDelete(1) I loved the "forgiven" scene in the show because it was the first time I felt like Sam embodied the spirit of Jamie when he went nose to nose with Claire in the fight but then showed how much he loved her when he said she was tearing his guts out (I agree the corny voice-over was unnecessary).
(2) For me, the scene with Laoghaire, followed by the oath to Claire, followed by the knife / sex scene were all “off.” I just don’t think the Jamie from the books would hold Laoghaire's boobs and then yell sorry when she runs away. It totally contradicts the argument in the book when Jamie says they’d been at the castle less than an hour and he’s exhausted and dirty but Claire’s accusing him of running off to seduce a 16 year old. Then in the book Claire says she has no claim on him and he can do what he wants, which is when he explodes because marriage is a claim on him. So how could he go to the river and touch Laoghaire’s boobs? I just don’t get it.
(3) By losing Claire’s POV at Leoch (thinking that Jaime just married her for the money and is off with Laoghaire), we miss out on a major moment of insecurity for Claire. Instead Claire is the strong rational one throughout, which is not how it is in the book. There needs to be more balance between Jamie and Claire. His strength and pride is missing in the show.
(4) The knife seemed so strange – again, I really think the Jamie from the books would’ve had a reaction to the knife during sex. He wouldn’t have been so submissive in that situation. I didn’t mind the sex, but I absolutely agree that there was a reason for the rough sex in the book and something that clicked in Claire’s mind when she realized that this man would not be denied. I feel like it is key that Claire realizes that she is attracted to this strong, proud, somewhat dominating man. That's what's attractive to me about Jamie -- he's not a modern man. He's a bloody Scottish highlander who is just enough bad guy for all the right reasons.
I actually liked the way the make-up sex scene was filmed. I think it was important given the timing of things in the show. This was the first time they have sex after she was nearly raped by the red coat deserters in the glen AND then again by Black Jack Randall within about a 24hr period. And, then, right afterwards is the big fight between J & C and the spanking. She suffered physically 3 times in a row with little time in-between. She NEEDED to take back control of her body after all of that and the way she does that psychologically is by holding the knife to Jamie during sex to tell him HE will not be the one to mistreat her body. I think it was important for Claire to be able to get back into the saddle with Jamie, so to speak. If they would have had Jamie dominating Claire at this point, I think it wouldn't have been realistic because of what she went through so recently. The tv timeline is so much more compressed.
ReplyDeleteI agree, thanks.
DeleteKatbyrde
Oooh, those are some good points! I totally didn't realize this was the first time they'd been together since the redcoat deserters in the glen...interesting! That seems so long ago!
DeleteYes, if you piece everything together the timeline looks like this:
Delete1. Claire is almost raped by the deserters in the glen (sometimes in morning or mid-day)
2. The Mackenzie group rides away for an unknown amount of time (based on Claire's comments, its still the same day)
3. Jamie leaves Claire in the forest with Willie (sometime in the afternoon of 1st day)
4. Claire goes to Craigh na Dun (still afternoon)
5. Claire is carted off to Fort William / Willie finds Jamie after his meeting with Horrocks (still daylight)
5. Claire is almost raped by Black Jack / Jamie and group arrive at Fort William to rescue Claire (night time)
6. The group ride away from Fort William (night and into the next morning)
7. Jamie and Claire have fight near stream (morning of the 2nd day)
8. Group rides to the Inn (afternoon of 2nd day)
9. Jamie spanks Claire (night time of 2nd day)
oopd...an extra "5" is in there. I guess there's 10 steps.
DeleteI'm not sure what I think of the Laoghaire side story in the episode. I wouldn't put it past book Laoghaire to do such a thing (off scene, obviously). I don't think Jamie would have said nothing happened if something like that did. So, I do think this is invented for the show.
ReplyDeleteMy issue with this storyline is that now Jamie knows more about Laoghaire (that she's conniving and that she was the one who placed the ill-wish), it makes it less likely that she will show up in the future seasons the way that she does in the books. Part of the reason she shows up in the future books is because Claire never communicates to Jamie what Laoghaire does at Leoch. With that said, I do think Jamie has always had a soft spot/weakness for Laoghaire that isn't the deep love he has with Claire, but is "something." I think we see that in his temptation here. I think it is possible, as someone said...maybe Ron or Matt in the podcast...that if Claire had never shown up that J & L would have gotten together soon. They actually filmed the scene with J & L kissing and Meril fought to not have them kiss. Ron thought Jamie pulling back after kissing L would have shown more will power (man's perspective of having to stop after starting). But, I think Meril knew that to the female audience, it would have been a betrayal of C had J kissed L...even if a small one. Yes, C was mad at him and yes he wasn't sure if it would work out...but it was too early for him to "give up" on C. Luckily, Meril won that debate. I would have NOT wanted to see J kiss L.
***Spoiler***
ReplyDeleteI think Loaghaire will show up in the future and marry Jamie, of course we know it is a different Jamie spirit wise, men are much more forgiving then women that is why Jamie does not understand why Claire is so mad at him. He would be punished and accept it and move on most men do. Women have a tendency to hold on to things a little longer. Hope that does not offend anyone just an observation.
Thanks, lasses, for your recaps. Ron & Terry & Company have done an outstanding job.
ReplyDeleteI don't see Jamie as "submissive" -- he's a young man newly married, still feeling his way. His heritage tells him he must beat his headstrong wife into submission. But, he's had time to figure out that might not be the way to a happy marriage. Remember that his mother died when he was very young, so he hasn't had a home view of a mature marriage. Also that he thinks human sex is like horses. (Hmmm aside -- did Colum thrash Letitia to make her couple with Dougal??? or did he just order her to it??) Before BJR rapes Jenny and takes Jamie to Fort William, there are no married people at Lallybroch to model marriage. Would a submissive man undertake a dangerous rescue? Yeah, we know, BJR has her. All the more reason to let her reap and hang -- if he's submissive. So, no, I think not.
Jamie clearly wants Claire -- is addicted to her now. And, he's an honorable man -- wants his marriage to work -- to Laoghaire's fury. He doesn't know how to bridge the gap between them -- to his credit, he wants to, wants Claire to want him as well. And that's why the fireplace declaration and subsequent fealty oath is so heart-felt. It also sets the stage for the knife at the throat scene. Claire re-claiming her personal power after being manhandled by deserters, BJR, Jamie spanking. This is dangerous sex here-- but Jamie could have disarmed her if he'd wanted to. Might have gotten a wee bit of a skratch, though.
As a single woman, I didn't find the sex scenes gratuitous either here or in Wedding episode. Claire has a strong sex drive -- she said in first ep that she and Frank could always reconnect through sex. And here she's married to a strapping young Scot who's clearly always ready ("ravenous -- oh you meant food...")
I started reading the series twenty-some years ago -- they saw me through some rough patches -- so I escaped with Jamie & Claire. I haven't read Outlander in years and am waiting to pick the books up again so as not to color my thinking on the tv series. Given Season 2 is said to not be available until 2016, the next Droughtlander starting in June will give me the push to not only binge on Season 1 again, but once I've settled down, to reread Outlander.
I didn't mean to turn this into "true confessions". I gave up trying to watch Game of Thrones partway through my first viewing. Outlander I go back to again and again.
Looking forward to your next recap.
Katbyrde
I agree, we have to remember how young Jamie is. The writers may be wanting to highlight how he matures through their marriage. It will be more interesting if his character develops into "the King of Men" rather than begins there. Hopefully ( please, please, please!) there's lots of time to watch their characters grow!
Delete