SPOILER ALERT: Dinna read unless you have finished Chapter 16 in A Breath of Snow and Ashes.
Why can't I get past this Jamie-sleeping-naked-with-two-naked-Indian-squaws thing? And note that all parties were naked. HE was naked. My friend, Shannon made a good point this morning: Why didn't Jamie put his kilt back on? (Or his shirt, for that matter?) Although that's not to say Shannon agrees with me. She does not. She, like Tracey, found it a hilarious scene.
Don't get me wrong - I found it mildly amusing. It was comical when Ian was laughing his ass off on the floor. Yup - it was comical. Until Jamie got back into bed with the aforementioned naked women. Then I just found the whole thing wrong. And it only compounded when he got home, jumped into bed with Claire and proceeded to tell her to get on her knees when she asked how it went with the Cherokee. Poor Jamie...sleeping with that cockstand was so tough on him...he had no choice but to go home and rail his wife from behind.
I get that he didn't have sex. I do. And I appreciate the hell out of it. He could have had some major fun with those women; but he didn't. But I just don't see how a zebra can change his stripes so easily. A man who won't sleep on the floor of a woman when they're not married will most certainly not sleep naked with two naked women once he is.
I suppose I also had a huge problem with the Cherokee women being used as objects like that. And with Jamie not showing a little more respect for them in the whole process.
He could have put his clothes on.
He could have wrapped the women in the skins.
He could have slept on the floor.
He could have waited until the rain let up and sent them on their way.
I can go on and on. I just can't get on board with the notion that Jamie was in danger of offending Bird Who Sings in the Morning, so he had to sleep with two naked women. What about Bird Who Sings in the Morning offending Jamie??? Jamie could go back to the King and report badly about the Cherokee because of what happened. Not that he ever would - but there are two sides here. There is a point where you say "enough" and do what is right for your own soul. How sleeping naked with two naked women could be right for the soul of a man who has that much honor is absolutely beyond me. I think it's completely out of character and makes zero sense.
If you know of any further explanation of this scene by Diana Gabaldon, please let me know.
Here's a link to a post on Compuserve where Diana commented on this particular issue.
ReplyDeleteMy personal opinion is that Jamie has far more will-power than the average person (including most readers!) And he's too kind-hearted to send the girls back out into the pouring rain.
No spoilers in that thread, btw. I think it's safe for you to look at. :-)
Karen
I take it back, that thread I linked to DOES have a spoiler in it, but Diana's comment by itself is not at all spoilerish.
ReplyDeleteKaren
LOL Karen. I am reading this 3.5 years later and still thankful that you reposted and mentioned the spoilers. :)
DeleteTHANK YOU KAREN. It's SO funny - I thought of you immediately when I typed that about Diana. I almost put "Karen - if you know of any commentary from Diana..." I'll check out Diana's comment with "one eye closed". I just have to know what she said. Thanks. :)
ReplyDeleteHaha....I think Jamie has more restraint than the average man! Nakedness, especially in the Indian camps was no biggie.
ReplyDeleteMy husband was very entertained by that scene. Of course he was! He's a man, lol.
And Jamie knew the proper etiquette for the situation so as not to insult anyone. And like Karen said, he felt sorry for those girls. But what restraint!! He didn't even touch them...just lay there on his back with a miserable unrelenting cockstand LOL. More like torturing himself.
Unfortunately, many men would have failed miserably in that situation.
LOTS of men take out their arousals on their women without explanation. Many people use porn for that reason. He just got home and was horny....who cares why? lol. After all, he did nothing to be guilty for.
My husband doesn't mind me watching a lot of Gerard Butler movies, he knows how "agreeable" it makes me, LOL! He knows it's a score for him :D
He did nothing to be guilty of? He slept naked with TWO women then came home and demanded sex from the wife who was unaware. So it’d be cool if Claire slept naked next to 2 naked men right? 🙄
DeleteI've been having a busy weekend and have not had a chance to respond with my own viewpoint to the "Jamie and the naked squaws" controversy--but now I don't have to, since Bonnie's comment is EXACTLY what I would have said!!
ReplyDeleteI found the scene funny more than anything. I still giggle when I think about Ian totally knowing what was going on and being all casual about it even as he was cracking up. Also, I didn't see the scene as something that Jamie did--I saw it as something that was done to him.
I think, as Bonnie says, you have to think about it in the context of the time and the circumstances. Jamie could NOT have just thrown the lasses out--it would have been seen as a terrible insult to Bird-in-the-Hand-Is-Worth-Two-in-the-Bush. I do agree he could have gotten up and put his kilt back on (tho now that I'm rereading, it does say that once he realized the ladies were naked, he "sat up, gathering furs and blankets round him in a sort of hasty redoubt), but I don't think he had many other options. If he had moved to the floor, the lasses would have, too. He pretty much just had to save face any way he could.
And what would Claire's reaction be were she to find out? Hmmm...well, I think she's older, wiser, and more confident in her relationship with Jamie since she freaked out in France over the incident with the whores. I don't think she would have been pleased--but i think she trusts Jamie enough to know that he would never let anything happen. Tho Jamie would have definitely been at her beck and call. LOL--I'll bet she would have gotten to spend a LOT more time on top... ;-)
Tracy, I forgot that Jamie gathered up his furs about him, XD! It's been awhile since I read that. Even better yet! So funny! That would make quite a barrier, no? And ANY guy would have a cockstand laying with naked girls no matter whether he liked them or not. Basic physiology. Unless he were gay, maybe not then.....but Jamie isn't THAT....LOL
ReplyDeleteIf you're thinking "oh geez, Carol, this was a nothing thing; let it GO!" I will admit; I agree with you. It bothers me that this is bothering me. I think my ultimate problem is that it's just so completely out of character for the Jamie Fraser I've been reading about all these months... and I'm having a hard time putting him back into perspective.
ReplyDeleteWhile you all make verra solid and valid points, I will have to agree to disagree.
I absolutely see what initially happened (Jamie waking up with the girls groping him) as something that was done to Jamie. However I see Jamie getting back into bed - naked - with two naked women - as something that he did - by choice. He had other options. He could have at least gotten dressed. And he could have slept on the floor and let them have the bed. So I can't feel sorry for him - or his cockstand.
And let's recall the shoe being on the other foot. Remember how mad Jamie was at Claire for walking into a barn alone with Wylie? Yes, yes, it's a no no in the 18th century. But just like the Indian women, Wylie came on to Claire - and she said "no" and did nothing sexual. And yet Jamie was livid. And it kindof pales in comparison, doesn't it?
Here are two rhetorical questions that willna leave my brain:
1 - As of page 1 of Chapter 22, Claire does not know what happened with the women. Why is that? Why didn't Jamie tell her?
2 - How would we feel if our husbands or significant others slept naked in a bed with two naked women who were "snuggled down on either side of him, warm bare flesh pressed cozily against him"?
21st century spin? A lap dance isn't technically cheating either.
Carol, I am in 10000% agreement with you on this one. I was glad Jamie told them "no" and that he is a "marrit man" but laying next to them to sleep??? Why didn't he think that was wrong? It seems out of character for Jamie to NOT think that it was wrong. He should have figured something out to make other sleeping arrangements. --
ReplyDeleteWhy didn't the girls go keep Ian warm instead?
21st century lap dance -- how often is the man receiving said lap dance also himself naked? - I would not be happy if my husband got a lap dance (naked or not).
And as far as Claire being older and more sure of her relationship and trust in Jamie so as not to allow this incident to bother her... age or trust should not supercede the fact that when you are a "marrit", naked bodies laying together (other than that of your wife) for anything other than for life saving warmth should not be "okay" in any time (18th century or otherwise). -- Evidence by the fact that he had an unrelenting cockstand the entire night, it wasn't just an innocent sleeping arrangement.
Whewwwww... ok, glad I got that out. Hopefully Jamie will redeem himself.
I did not find that scene the least bit funny. Jamie could have slept on the floor. Lets get real. He loved it. And the fact that he was not going to tell Claire, well that does not sound innocent to me. If you have to keep something secret. Then what you are doing is wrong. Simple as that.
DeleteI wiped Jamie's star right off his forhead after that.
And Claire laughing, well that just isn't real.
Just saying
EXACTLY Anonymous. The whole thing irked me more than anything else in the first 7 books. Seriously. And Claire laughing - you are so right! Come on!! Who would laugh?! OK so she might not have been as annoyed as I was...but laughing? Not realistic!
DeleteJennifer - THANK YOU SO MUCH because I have been having a verra hard time saying everything you just said.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad someone else understands what I've been trying to say.
I don't care that it was the 18th century and the Chief could get offended. Jamie SHOULD have been offended. And Jamie is their link to the King/guns, so I'd think they'd be a little more concerned with offending him; not the other way around.
And bottom line - Ian could have come up with something to tell the King - if it ever even came to that - which it wouldn't have if they had just had the girls sleep on the floor (with or without Ian) or had Jamie sleep on the floor and the girls sleep on the bed. No one would have been the wiser. Ian could have told the girls not to speak of it to anyone - done - end of story.
I am just having to do a lot of reworking in my head to forget about it and get Jamie back to being an ethical guy who would never disrespect his wife - which he plainly did in my opinion.
PS - I'd have been much better with it had he come home and told Claire what happened straight away. If he'd just said "Look - this happened and I didn't know what to do - and this was the best I could think of at the time and I'm sorry" - I'd be OK. At least Claire would know - and he'd have shown a little regret for having slept naked with two naked women.
I agree with you. Just finished chapter 14 in which Jamie sleeps with the two Indian girls. Did not find this one bit funny and if Claire does, well , it may just have ruined the books for me. Why is it "funny" for Jamie to sleep naked between two naked girls considering the slut shaming fit he went into when Philip Wylie came onto Claire? She, by the way, fending him off within a few moments and both of them being fully clothed. I would be packing my bags, stones or no!
DeleteOh BBonnie, it took me a LONGGGG time to get over it. I'm not sure I am, still, after all these years! LOL I guess I just chalked it up to agreeing to disagree, and moved on. :)
DeleteAh well, I guess all books, like all people, have flaws, even the good ones, aye?
DeleteAnd now that I've finished the whole series I feel lost, searching for my Outlander fix. Lord John Grey doesn't do it for me.
Deleteso i'm on part 3 now. i think it's funny and yet not that everytime jamie spends time with the cherokee he's hornier than a 16 year old. so i'm thinking this happens everytime he hangs out with them? the first time it happens, he's caught unawares. the 2nd? wear the breeches maybe?
ReplyDeleteRight. Wear the britches! Good point, Maryse!!
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you Carol. He should have switched places with Ian. One thing I have to add is that when he wouldn't sleep on the floor of a woman he wasn't marrit to, I think that was more about protecting Claire's reputation rather than his own honor. Not that Jaimie isn't totally honorable but at that time it would be the woman's reputation that would be ruined not his. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteJamie finds a common language with the local Cherokee. He often visited them, staying at their guest house. Every time, Jamie visited the Cherokee, he slept naked with two naked young nubile lasses.
ReplyDeleteHow sleeping naked with two naked young girls can be right for the soul of a person who has such a great honor?
He could explain that he was married and would not and could not commit the great sin of adultery.
Local Cherokee deeply respects their own and others' traditions and beliefs, so they would never force guests to commit adultery.
He could go and spend the night, as usual, in the forest to which he was accustomed, and no longer stay there for the night.
He could wait until the rain subsided and send the young girl out.
At least he could get dressed.
He could sleep on the floor.
Moreover, Jamie was so busy visiting the local Cherokee and other local tribes that he did not have time to collect his crops. Claire was kidnapped, abused, raped, and beaten for three days. Jamie was as usual away, so he found out about it three days after the kidnapping.
I think it's completely uncharacteristic and doesn't make any sense. Diana Gabaldon simply destroyed the main character, after which the Outlander Series lost its meaning. I am so sorry.
Did you see this week's episode? We are in BIG trouble. It's coming. I just can't even begin to imagine how they're going to handle this situation. STAY TUNED!
DeleteOhmy God I had not read the books but plan on soon I am binge watching the show and I was so fucking happy in the show when he did turn them away. I was like yes I love Jamie for a hell of a lot. This right here just put it as like my number one reason I love him to pieces and his vow. So it saddend me to read that in the books he didn't turn them out of his bed. Like the one thing above all things Jamie did and it was a lie so I'm just going to pretend him did in the books when I read them lmao
DeleteIf you haven't read the books, I have to stress that he did not sleep with them. But...you saw everything else I said so I won't wax on and on here. LMAO!
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