Hi guys, I'm pretty sure that I'm your youngest fan. I'm 14 and I live in California. I am a huge, GIGANTIC reader, and I am completley in love with the outlander series, and anything Jamie. I am only on the fiery cross, so I'm glad you guys are doing the re-read so I can agree and disagree. I agree with carol, I think Jamie knew what was going on with geilis. And I also agree with carol about the whole Claire loves jamie. I think Jamie was the last thing on her mind, but she did think she was hot. Let's not forget how smoking hot Jamie was in his younger age, as much as we love the older Jamie. Younger Jamie was like the hottest man to walk the earth. He still is:) so anyways, you guys rock. I love all of your blog posts and listening to you guys rant about everything. I can't wait for the graphic novel, it's going to be really REALLY cool. Oh and also, in the fiery cross did you guys notice how much Claire went on and on about frank? I mean lord, get over it! I'm so done with frank! Ok. Bye! P.s check out my facebook , Miranda Williams P.p.I've also read the twilight series (who hasn't?) team Edward for life. Jacob never gets Bella, why would anyone even be on his team? And F.Y.I in the books he never randomly takes his shirt off. Just saying.
Miranda, you rock. IMHO Jamie did not know anything about the plans for Geilis. He was not in the loop. The brothers McKenzie didn't regard him as anyone who needed to be consulted. They tried to get rid of Jamie, when they couldn't kill him they made sure he couldn't be in line to be clan chieftain by having him marry Claire. I wondered if the plan to get Geilis away, and not burned, was Dougal's plan all along. She was useful to him. He said he would, "Do right by her." Just a thought.
The more I puzzle through this, the more I think Jamie did know what was up with Geilis. Regardless of that, what matters most is that he did NOT trust his uncles, or most anybody else at Leoch. Why? Because they were all MACKENZIES!!!! Nuff said! Treacherous lot and Dougal had already tried to off him at least once - he knew Claire wouldn't be safe when he was out of the castle, but especially if she got involved with MacKenzie intrigues. (ooh, is it September yet??)
Ok so... am I the only one who talks to these vids the entire time I am watching them? It's almost as if I don't realize that no one can hear me. Then when I am released from the fog it's rather an unfulfilling feeling that I was unheard at that perfect moment of clarity. Hahaha!! So! I'll re-rant... 1. I think Colum did what he could (witch trial) because if Claire died that puts Jamie more or less in the running to be laird of Leoch (said with phlegm.. ha) I'm sure he wants to keep it Mac land. 2. If Jamie knew about the Gellie BB-Q I don't think he'd stop it because she gave him the creeps, he thought she was bad news (but that may be a swayed opinion cause I'm on Voyager re-read). I don't think he knew about it or he would have left Murtaugh to keep an eye on her, he knows she won't lisfen half the time and needs supervision (annoying when he's usually right! Voyager: Stay in the boat while the men look for Ian, ugh! ) 3, I think Dougal just wants to get on Claire, what did Colum say? Something bout him being the brains and Dougal being the ahem... :) I do think Colum had a respect for her that He doesn't even understand. 4. Was I the only one that during the first read was dying for Claire to get back to Frank? Even at the stones I was so completely torn!! Sobbing mess babbling to the book like the vids, was bad. Re-reading it without that shameful notion out of my head was completely eye-opening! And yes I think she was afraid to admit to herself that she was liking Jamie cause she didn't want ties to anything when she planned on leaving. Now the lap scene when they first get to Leoch, did she jump off his lap because it was so intimate and it got her stirring - or - did Jamie spring some wood? Canna figure it out!
Ok think thats all for now!! :)
I lied one more unrelated thing. I was having Scotland cravings so did a Netflix search and came across this BBC series called Monarch of the Glen, it's about a 21st Century Scottish laird who is trying to save the family estate. Totally cute tons of kilts and Scot traditions. And they have season 1-5 on watch instantly! Enjoy!!!
Jessica: Question in number 4 is AWESOMEBLOSSOM!!! I always assumed it was the latter choice rather than the former, but now that I think of it, it might be a combination of the two choices. It was a really intimate (in terms of closeness, not necessarily sexual) moment--I mean, one rarely sits on a guy's lap that she just met and cries on his shoulder. But then it started to get a bit intimate in the other sense--certainly for Jamie, not so much for her, I think, and that's what got her to finally get up.
But yeah, this is an example of a scene that is going to be SO awesome to see from Jamie's POV--or even better, from a movie standpoint. I would LOVE to see how actors would play that.
I think I should play it, I'll have to get contacts, shrink 3 inches lose my Arizona tan and gain a british accent... but I have her hair! I think my riveting performance as "The" Yellow Brick Road in my 5th grade Wizard of Oz play will seal the deal. I think mum still has it on Vhs.
I don't think Jamie knew about the plot against Gellie specifically, but if he had, I don't think he would have tried to stop it. He obviously doesn't trust Gellie, and when he tells Claire to stay away from her he admits he thinks she might be a witch. He is a bit superstitious after all. Plus, I don't think he would see it as being his place to stop justice from being served, as it were. Collum is laird, and Jamie respects his authority when it comes to running his clan. They clash when Collum (or Dougal) try to run Jamie's life or someone he sees as being his responsibility. I remember somewhere on the compuserve boards a while back, Diana hinted that Mrs Fitzgibbons might have had something to do with Claire being lured to the town. Or that she at least knew about it. I hope that doesn't turn out to be true, but she IS Laoghaire's grandmother. Can't wait for The Exile!
Changing subjects, I agree about Claire: I think she certainly found Jamie attractive from the beginning and was more drawn to him than she admitted, but I don't think she subconsciously loved him instantly the way Jamie claims he felt about her. Claire's affection seems to have come on more gradually.
Love the videos. I really enjoy your discussion!
Not that it matters, but I'm also missarcasm on YouTube just fyi.
OK, this isnna really about the vids, but I respect y'all's opinion, so here goes: I was watching re-runs on TNT of Bones - one of my fav shows... If you don't really watch it, then you probably won't get this and I apologise, but if you're a fan and know about the whole Booth/Bones dynamic, well, anyway - it hit me tonight that their relationship is VERY Jamie/Claire (minus the sex, ahem...)Booth is big and strong and sexy, a people-person who knows how to fight and protect the ones he loves. And Bones is all science-y and intellectual and is so smart that the people around her don't understand her and Booth has to 'save' her from those people and explain things to her all the time that 'common sense' tells most people. So, what'd ya think? Comments?Anyone?
Once again, great videos!! I think it's so interesting to listen to you two discuss the books and bring up issues I've never even considered in all of my re-reads. I just can't agree that Column has a soft-spot for Claire. I've always thought he was testing her at every turn, trying to get her real story. I never trusted anything he said as he always had a motive behind things. Just like Dugal, he's as likely to kill you as he is to make you feel welcomed at the table. And...he didn't step in to save her from the trial. Verra interesting to consider your point of view, though. I'm totally up for Comic-Con. I've already cleared the weekend w/ the hubby. I would love to take part in some Outlander festivities...especially if PJ makes an appearance!
Loved the videos. It's always lovely to see you lassies discuss... Carol, I completely agree with you about Claire thinking Jamie was hot BEFORE they got married. Sorry, Tracey, I disagree with you on that one. I canna remember where, but there are at least a few times where she's ogling him, I believe, like when she's pretend sleeping in the grass by the horses, and Jamie is working on a horse, or something? Anyways.... I also think that Jamie kinda knew about the whole Geilis witchhunt, but that he knew he couldn't do anything about it anyway, so decided to not mention it to Claire. I still wonder why he chose to take Maurtaigh with him on that hunting trip, when Murtaugh should have stayed behind to take care of Claire. He was one of the only people in that castle that Jamie completely trusted...
@Jessica, regarding Frank. I have to say, I hated Frank from the get-go of Outlander. He seemed to slick for me, and from reading the cover I knew Claire was gonna bump into this HOT SCOT, so I was like, "Yeah, you run to those standing stones, and find this Jamie guy. He sounds amazing" And indeed he was...*sigh*
Jeaniebirdie--Oh, now don't misunderstand me--I never thought that Claire didn't think Jamie was hot--I mean, who in the castle DIDN'T think he was hot? You're right--there are a number of times where she notices how attractive he is. My point was less about finding him attractive and more about an attracTION to him--and even more so, admitting that attraction.
Basically, it comes down to this: Did Claire find Jamie attractive from the get-go? Was she attractED to him from the get go? Was she willing to admit it to herself (and to the reader) from the get-go? Did she (purposely or subconsciously) try to mislead herself (and the reader) about any sort of attraction? My answers are yes, pretty much, no, and yes.
Here's an example of what I mean: On the night where they had the singing guy entertaining at the castle, Claire was sitting next to Wee Ho. She tells us that she sees Wee Ho looking around, follows her gaze, and spots Jamie. She then proclaims herself Wee Ho's matchmaker and calls Jamie over so that he can sit with the two of them and hopefully Wee Ho will get lucky.
Hmmm...that's what she TELLS us, anyway. But deep down, how much of this whole scene was her wanting to spend time with Jamie herself? I'm thinking more than she was willing to admit.
She states as much on p. 223, after she and Jamie have wed and mmmphm-ed a few times. "I had been fighting it for some time....It had happened before, as it doubtless happens to almost everyone. A sudden sensitivity to the presence, the appearance, of a particular man....The urge to follow him with my eyes, to arrange for small, "inadvertent" meetings, to watch him unawares as he went about his work, an exquisite sensitivity to the small details of his body..." So what she's basically saying here is, "Yes, oh reader--i admit it. I was attracted to him."
Some additional interesting questions to ponder:
• Jamie says that he knew he loved Claire when she dressed his shoulder after he was shot. When did Claire first know she loved Jamie?
• Claire talks about the "fighting an attraction" thing like she has some prior experience with it, IMO. We know she never slept with another man while she was married to Frank--but what--if anything--do you think might have gone down with her during the war? Did she have a similar experience with one of the young soldiers or patients?
Och! I finally have a moment to respond to the awesome-ness that is your video.
First of all, I miss and <3 young Jamie. How ridiculous was his 15 hour fight (exaggeration) with his sister Jenny?! I bet you that he would never spend that time fighting with her in his ald age. But he is so adorable in Outlander. Before I started reading Dragonfly in Amber (Or was it Voyager? Probably Voyager), my mom told me some spoilers and how much Jamie had changed. When I started reading the 20 years later Jamie version I thought to myself, I don't think he's changed at all! Which, I mean, he didn't because he's still essentially the same Jamie. But, going back and re-reading you realize dang! He has changed!! He just matured really.
Anyway, I agree with both of you in regards to Claire's attraction. She does admit that Jamie is attractive, but just brushes it off as just an observation. I do think that she did feel more for him under the surface than she really lead on, or allowed herself to believe. I too never thought that she thought Dougal or Colum were hotties. But, now that you point it out, she did talk a lot about them! Perhaps she felt that it was "safe" to think they were hotties because they were married, and she wasn't going to take it anywhere. Whereas Jamie was single, so that was a little bit more dangerous territory...?
Ok, now about Jamie knowing about Geilis! I think that Jamie knew something was up. Who knows if it was the actual knowledge that she was going to be taken to be burned at the stake, or just the vague knowledge that something was a brewing (pun intended) in Geilis’ direction. I think that Jamie would always have someone to look out for Claire, and Jamie did just give Claire some good spanks on the bum that were supposed to teach her, deep down, to obey him. Claire did promise to obey Jamie no matter what the cost… which apparently was short lived (hehe).
I was thinking earlier that it was possible that Colum wanted to off Claire with Geilis, because of her big mouth about Hamish (seriously, Claire?). But I’m not so sure now. Perhaps he had other plans for her, but then decided her being accidently taken as a witch would solve his problem of keeping his secret safe? Claire also came the conclusion of him just letting her die as a witch, and decided that it was unforgivable of him to have done that (page 665).
Tracey... I guess I did misunderstand you. What you say makes comeplete sense to me. Claire thought Jamie was hot, just like all the other ladies at the castle, but as far as an attraction to him, in a "I could actually see myself with this guy"-kinda way, I guess she was kinda trying to fool herself. She does mention it after they have mmppff'ed a couple of times, and she's starting to fall for him, a bit, even though, she is still plannning on getting out of there, and I guess she doesn't really realise that she loves him until somewhere between coming back to Leoch (after they are married) and after the whole Witch trial?
Now, as far as your questions about Claire during the war, and other men? She does say at some point, that she had kissed other men, (I think) but I don't think she mentioned actually being with them. Or maybe she just meant people in general during the war, and not necessarily herself. I forget where she says it.
Jeaniebirdie: Here's the passage you're referring to, on page 222 of the trade paperback, last paragraph: "I had kissed my share of men, particularly during the war years, when flirtation and intense romance were the light-minded companions of death and uncertainty."
You know, I don't think anyone's ever REALLY taken Claire to task for that statement, at least not that I've ever read. I suppose it goes back to "what constitutes cheating in your mind"--and maybe this wasn't something that "counted" necessarily with her Claire. And we the readers really don't know what she means by "kissed my share of men"--pecks? Spin the Bottle? Full-on making out?
But every time I hit that statement in the book, I'm always like, hmmm....in the beginning Claire had wondered--and with some trepidation--whether Frank had cheated during the war, and then she blithely throws in the fact 200 pages later that she had "kissed her share of men" during the war? Definitely a head scratcher, to be sure...
Yeah, she does kinda just throw that statement out there. But from what Frank did later in their marriage, I would imagine that he also had some fun during the war.
I always got the feeling that the kissing during the war might have been something people did, to try to feel safe in some way, and try to forget that there was actually a war going on. A feeling I got from DG's story anyway. But for some reason it made sense to me, and I didn't really think anything of it. Just kinda thought, "well, that sounds reasonable." Hmmm, it still amazes me how I wonder about these things, like they're real people? This is so weird.
Jessica - "said with phlegm" is my favorite thing anyone has said to me in days. Hi-lar-i-ous! Leochhhhhh!
And YES - I was DY-ING for Claire go to back! At one point I didn't even like Jamie the first time I read Outlander! I called Tracey and was like "OK you know what? I'm done at Leoch. Jamie is a ho - all makin' out with Wee Ho in the alcove and fathering Hamish... ugh! Claire just needs to run away and go home!" I don't even think I could truly get into some parts because that was my thought process. How funny to think of that now. AND - yes - I've heard of Monach of the Glen but never watched it - so THANK YOU for reminding me!!
Right Olivia Right! Jamie pees on gateposts! Far be it from him to stop a witch trial! And I will favorite you on youtube! :)
Christie - you're killing me with the Bones reference. GOOD. ONE. Bones is all smart and she doesn't fall for Booth's nonsense. Booth is hot-a-licious and loves Bones because she's smart and sassy and doesna take his shite. I haven't watched in quite a while but did catch it recently and was shocked that they were talking about their own relationship. Wow. PS - I "knew" (used loosely) Dave B. in high school. He went to a local prep school and I used to see him at my school's football games. He was friendly with some of my friends and everyone knew who he was because his dad was our local weatherman... and I remember walking by him and saying "Hi" and being excited that Dave B said "Hi" to me. Back then he used to have a big boy haircut and wear Patagonia jackets. He was adorable.
Erin's going to ComicCon! Woot! Philly chicks abound! Dave B went to Malvern Prep, by the way. And M. Night Shyamalan lives in Malvern now. It freaks me out. It was never that hip when I lived there.
(TRacey - remember the Malvern Meeting House?)
Jeanie - good point - I can't get past the fact that Jamie took Murtagh - no matter what he knew or didn't know about Geillis.
Megs: You had me at "15 Hour Fight". At least I know one person will agree with my latest blog. :)
Welcome Miranda! 14 and clearly you know good literature when you see it. Good for you for being such an avid reader at your age. I have to admit I spent way too much time watching MTV when I was 14. Although that was in the stone age when they actually played music on MTV.... but I digress.. ;)
I am reading Dragonfly in Amber for the second time, the first being 8 or so years ago. I started them again after watching the Starz Outlander series. I just finished the part where Collum shows up and asks Prince Charles to bring him Claire then asks for Claire and Jamie. Collum talks with Jamie about his mother but he really wanted to know if he should commit the MacKenzie's to the battle. Once discussed and Jamie tells him no, Collum says to Claire that he almost rescued her when she and Geillis were being tried and said he supposes he was glad he didn't. What did me mean - glad because why? Maybe I missed something, but that piece of dialogue puzzled me. -Christina - not really anonymous,
Hi guys, I'm pretty sure that I'm your youngest fan. I'm 14 and I live in California. I am a huge, GIGANTIC reader, and I am completley in love with the outlander series, and anything Jamie. I am only on the fiery cross, so I'm glad you guys are doing the re-read so I can agree and disagree. I agree with carol, I think Jamie knew what was going on with geilis. And I also agree with carol about the whole Claire loves jamie. I think Jamie was the last thing on her mind, but she did think she was hot. Let's not forget how smoking hot Jamie was in his younger age, as much as we love the older Jamie. Younger Jamie was like the hottest man to walk the earth. He still is:) so anyways, you guys rock. I love all of your blog posts and listening to you guys rant about everything. I can't wait for the graphic novel, it's going to be really REALLY cool. Oh and also, in the fiery cross did you guys notice how much Claire went on and on about frank? I mean lord, get over it! I'm so done with frank! Ok. Bye!
ReplyDeleteP.s check out my facebook , Miranda Williams
P.p.I've also read the twilight series (who hasn't?) team Edward for life. Jacob never gets Bella, why would anyone even be on his team? And F.Y.I in the books he never randomly takes his shirt off. Just saying.
Fun videos, keep them coming.
ReplyDeleteMiranda, you rock. IMHO Jamie did not know anything about the plans for Geilis. He was not in the loop. The brothers McKenzie didn't regard him as anyone who needed to be consulted. They tried to get rid of Jamie, when they couldn't kill him they made sure he couldn't be in line to be clan chieftain by having him marry Claire.
I wondered if the plan to get Geilis away, and not burned, was Dougal's plan all along. She was useful to him. He said he would, "Do right by her." Just a thought.
The more I puzzle through this, the more I think Jamie did know what was up with Geilis. Regardless of that, what matters most is that he did NOT trust his uncles, or most anybody else at Leoch. Why? Because they were all MACKENZIES!!!! Nuff said! Treacherous lot and Dougal had already tried to off him at least once - he knew Claire wouldn't be safe when he was out of the castle, but especially if she got involved with MacKenzie intrigues. (ooh, is it September yet??)
ReplyDeleteOk so... am I the only one who talks to these vids the entire time I am watching them? It's almost as if I don't realize that no one can hear me. Then when I am released from the fog it's rather an unfulfilling feeling that I was unheard at that perfect moment of clarity. Hahaha!!
ReplyDeleteSo! I'll re-rant...
1. I think Colum did what he could (witch trial) because if Claire died that puts Jamie more or less in the running to be laird of Leoch (said with phlegm.. ha) I'm sure he wants to keep it Mac land.
2. If Jamie knew about the Gellie BB-Q I don't think he'd stop it because she gave him the creeps, he thought she was bad news (but that may be a swayed opinion cause I'm on Voyager re-read). I don't think he knew about it or he would have left Murtaugh to keep an eye on her, he knows she won't lisfen half the time and needs supervision (annoying when he's usually right! Voyager: Stay in the boat while the men look for Ian, ugh! )
3, I think Dougal just wants to get on Claire, what did Colum say? Something bout him being the brains and Dougal being the ahem... :) I do think Colum had a respect for her that He doesn't even understand.
4. Was I the only one that during the first read was dying for Claire to get back to Frank? Even at the stones I was so completely torn!! Sobbing mess babbling to the book like the vids, was bad. Re-reading it without that shameful notion out of my head was completely eye-opening! And yes I think she was afraid to admit to herself that she was liking Jamie cause she didn't want ties to anything when she planned on leaving. Now the lap scene when they first get to Leoch, did she jump off his lap because it was so intimate and it got her stirring - or - did Jamie spring some wood? Canna figure it out!
Ok think thats all for now!! :)
I lied one more unrelated thing. I was having Scotland cravings so did a Netflix search and came across this BBC series called Monarch of the Glen, it's about a 21st Century Scottish laird who is trying to save the family estate. Totally cute tons of kilts and Scot traditions. And they have season 1-5 on watch instantly! Enjoy!!!
Jessica :-)
Jessica: Question in number 4 is AWESOMEBLOSSOM!!! I always assumed it was the latter choice rather than the former, but now that I think of it, it might be a combination of the two choices. It was a really intimate (in terms of closeness, not necessarily sexual) moment--I mean, one rarely sits on a guy's lap that she just met and cries on his shoulder. But then it started to get a bit intimate in the other sense--certainly for Jamie, not so much for her, I think, and that's what got her to finally get up.
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, this is an example of a scene that is going to be SO awesome to see from Jamie's POV--or even better, from a movie standpoint. I would LOVE to see how actors would play that.
I think I should play it, I'll have to get contacts, shrink 3 inches lose my Arizona tan and gain a british accent... but I have her hair! I think my riveting performance as "The" Yellow Brick Road in my 5th grade Wizard of Oz play will seal the deal. I think mum still has it on Vhs.
ReplyDelete@Jessica I do that too! haha.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Jamie knew about the plot against Gellie specifically, but if he had, I don't think he would have tried to stop it.
He obviously doesn't trust Gellie, and when he tells Claire to stay away from her he admits he thinks she might be a witch. He is a bit superstitious after all. Plus, I don't think he would see it as being his place to stop justice from being served, as it were. Collum is laird, and Jamie respects his authority when it comes to running his clan. They clash when Collum (or Dougal) try to run Jamie's life or someone he sees as being his responsibility.
I remember somewhere on the compuserve boards a while back, Diana hinted that Mrs Fitzgibbons might have had something to do with Claire being lured to the town. Or that she at least knew about it. I hope that doesn't turn out to be true, but she IS Laoghaire's grandmother. Can't wait for The Exile!
Changing subjects, I agree about Claire: I think she certainly found Jamie attractive from the beginning and was more drawn to him than she admitted, but I don't think she subconsciously loved him instantly the way Jamie claims he felt about her. Claire's affection seems to have come on more gradually.
Love the videos. I really enjoy your discussion!
Not that it matters, but I'm also missarcasm on YouTube just fyi.
Sorry this is so long.
OK, this isnna really about the vids, but I respect y'all's opinion, so here goes:
ReplyDeleteI was watching re-runs on TNT of Bones - one of my fav shows... If you don't really watch it, then you probably won't get this and I apologise, but if you're a fan and know about the whole Booth/Bones dynamic, well, anyway - it hit me tonight that their relationship is VERY Jamie/Claire (minus the sex, ahem...)Booth is big and strong and sexy, a people-person who knows how to fight and protect the ones he loves. And Bones is all science-y and intellectual and is so smart that the people around her don't understand her and Booth has to 'save' her from those people and explain things to her all the time that 'common sense' tells most people.
So, what'd ya think? Comments?Anyone?
Once again, great videos!! I think it's so interesting to listen to you two discuss the books and bring up issues I've never even considered in all of my re-reads. I just can't agree that Column has a soft-spot for Claire. I've always thought he was testing her at every turn, trying to get her real story. I never trusted anything he said as he always had a motive behind things. Just like Dugal, he's as likely to kill you as he is to make you feel welcomed at the table. And...he didn't step in to save her from the trial. Verra interesting to consider your point of view, though.
ReplyDeleteI'm totally up for Comic-Con. I've already cleared the weekend w/ the hubby. I would love to take part in some Outlander festivities...especially if PJ makes an appearance!
Loved the videos. It's always lovely to see you lassies discuss...
ReplyDeleteCarol, I completely agree with you about Claire thinking Jamie was hot BEFORE they got married. Sorry, Tracey, I disagree with you on that one. I canna remember where, but there are at least a few times where she's ogling him, I believe, like when she's pretend sleeping in the grass by the horses, and Jamie is working on a horse, or something?
Anyways....
I also think that Jamie kinda knew about the whole Geilis witchhunt, but that he knew he couldn't do anything about it anyway, so decided to not mention it to Claire. I still wonder why he chose to take Maurtaigh with him on that hunting trip, when Murtaugh should have stayed behind to take care of Claire. He was one of the only people in that castle that Jamie completely trusted...
@Jessica, regarding Frank. I have to say, I hated Frank from the get-go of Outlander. He seemed to slick for me, and from reading the cover I knew Claire was gonna bump into this HOT SCOT, so I was like, "Yeah, you run to those standing stones, and find this Jamie guy. He sounds amazing" And indeed he was...*sigh*
Jeaniebirdie--Oh, now don't misunderstand me--I never thought that Claire didn't think Jamie was hot--I mean, who in the castle DIDN'T think he was hot? You're right--there are a number of times where she notices how attractive he is. My point was less about finding him attractive and more about an attracTION to him--and even more so, admitting that attraction.
ReplyDeleteBasically, it comes down to this: Did Claire find Jamie attractive from the get-go? Was she attractED to him from the get go? Was she willing to admit it to herself (and to the reader) from the get-go? Did she (purposely or subconsciously) try to mislead herself (and the reader) about any sort of attraction? My answers are yes, pretty much, no, and yes.
Here's an example of what I mean: On the night where they had the singing guy entertaining at the castle, Claire was sitting next to Wee Ho. She tells us that she sees Wee Ho looking around, follows her gaze, and spots Jamie. She then proclaims herself Wee Ho's matchmaker and calls Jamie over so that he can sit with the two of them and hopefully Wee Ho will get lucky.
Hmmm...that's what she TELLS us, anyway. But deep down, how much of this whole scene was her wanting to spend time with Jamie herself? I'm thinking more than she was willing to admit.
She states as much on p. 223, after she and Jamie have wed and mmmphm-ed a few times. "I had been fighting it for some time....It had happened before, as it doubtless happens to almost everyone. A sudden sensitivity to the presence, the appearance, of a particular man....The urge to follow him with my eyes, to arrange for small, "inadvertent" meetings, to watch him unawares as he went about his work, an exquisite sensitivity to the small details of his body..." So what she's basically saying here is, "Yes, oh reader--i admit it. I was attracted to him."
Some additional interesting questions to ponder:
• Jamie says that he knew he loved Claire when she dressed his shoulder after he was shot. When did Claire first know she loved Jamie?
• Claire talks about the "fighting an attraction" thing like she has some prior experience with it, IMO. We know she never slept with another man while she was married to Frank--but what--if anything--do you think might have gone down with her during the war? Did she have a similar experience with one of the young soldiers or patients?
Och! I finally have a moment to respond to the awesome-ness that is your video.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I miss and <3 young Jamie. How ridiculous was his 15 hour fight (exaggeration) with his sister Jenny?! I bet you that he would never spend that time fighting with her in his ald age. But he is so adorable in Outlander. Before I started reading Dragonfly in Amber (Or was it Voyager? Probably Voyager), my mom told me some spoilers and how much Jamie had changed. When I started reading the 20 years later Jamie version I thought to myself, I don't think he's changed at all! Which, I mean, he didn't because he's still essentially the same Jamie. But, going back and re-reading you realize dang! He has changed!! He just matured really.
Anyway, I agree with both of you in regards to Claire's attraction. She does admit that Jamie is attractive, but just brushes it off as just an observation. I do think that she did feel more for him under the surface than she really lead on, or allowed herself to believe. I too never thought that she thought Dougal or Colum were hotties. But, now that you point it out, she did talk a lot about them! Perhaps she felt that it was "safe" to think they were hotties because they were married, and she wasn't going to take it anywhere. Whereas Jamie was single, so that was a little bit more dangerous territory...?
Ok, now about Jamie knowing about Geilis! I think that Jamie knew something was up. Who knows if it was the actual knowledge that she was going to be taken to be burned at the stake, or just the vague knowledge that something was a brewing (pun intended) in Geilis’ direction. I think that Jamie would always have someone to look out for Claire, and Jamie did just give Claire some good spanks on the bum that were supposed to teach her, deep down, to obey him. Claire did promise to obey Jamie no matter what the cost… which apparently was short lived (hehe).
I was thinking earlier that it was possible that Colum wanted to off Claire with Geilis, because of her big mouth about Hamish (seriously, Claire?). But I’m not so sure now. Perhaps he had other plans for her, but then decided her being accidently taken as a witch would solve his problem of keeping his secret safe? Claire also came the conclusion of him just letting her die as a witch, and decided that it was unforgivable of him to have done that (page 665).
Wow, that was a long rant.
Tracey... I guess I did misunderstand you. What you say makes comeplete sense to me. Claire thought Jamie was hot, just like all the other ladies at the castle, but as far as an attraction to him, in a "I could actually see myself with this guy"-kinda way, I guess she was kinda trying to fool herself. She does mention it after they have mmppff'ed a couple of times, and she's starting to fall for him, a bit, even though, she is still plannning on getting out of there, and I guess she doesn't really realise that she loves him until somewhere between coming back to Leoch (after they are married) and after the whole Witch trial?
ReplyDeleteNow, as far as your questions about Claire during the war, and other men? She does say at some point, that she had kissed other men, (I think) but I don't think she mentioned actually being with them. Or maybe she just meant people in general during the war, and not necessarily herself. I forget where she says it.
Whoa sounds like a good discussion! I will be back to answer in the AM!
ReplyDeletePS - Welcome Miranda! :)
Jeaniebirdie: Here's the passage you're referring to, on page 222 of the trade paperback, last paragraph: "I had kissed my share of men, particularly during the war years, when flirtation and intense romance were the light-minded companions of death and uncertainty."
ReplyDeleteYou know, I don't think anyone's ever REALLY taken Claire to task for that statement, at least not that I've ever read. I suppose it goes back to "what constitutes cheating in your mind"--and maybe this wasn't something that "counted" necessarily with her Claire. And we the readers really don't know what she means by "kissed my share of men"--pecks? Spin the Bottle? Full-on making out?
But every time I hit that statement in the book, I'm always like, hmmm....in the beginning Claire had wondered--and with some trepidation--whether Frank had cheated during the war, and then she blithely throws in the fact 200 pages later that she had "kissed her share of men" during the war? Definitely a head scratcher, to be sure...
omg, I know Tracey! That whole thing is so weird to me! Claire, you I.S.!
ReplyDelete"Claire, you I.S." LOL, Megs.
ReplyDeleteYeah, she does kinda just throw that statement out there. But from what Frank did later in their marriage, I would imagine that he also had some fun during the war.
I always got the feeling that the kissing during the war might have been something people did, to try to feel safe in some way, and try to forget that there was actually a war going on. A feeling I got from DG's story anyway. But for some reason it made sense to me, and I didn't really think anything of it. Just kinda thought, "well, that sounds reasonable."
Hmmm, it still amazes me how I wonder about these things, like they're real people? This is so weird.
Jessica - "said with phlegm" is my favorite thing anyone has said to me in days. Hi-lar-i-ous! Leochhhhhh!
ReplyDeleteAnd YES - I was DY-ING for Claire go to back! At one point I didn't even like Jamie the first time I read Outlander! I called Tracey and was like "OK you know what? I'm done at Leoch. Jamie is a ho - all makin' out with Wee Ho in the alcove and fathering Hamish... ugh! Claire just needs to run away and go home!" I don't even think I could truly get into some parts because that was my thought process. How funny to think of that now. AND - yes - I've heard of Monach of the Glen but never watched it - so THANK YOU for reminding me!!
Right Olivia Right! Jamie pees on gateposts! Far be it from him to stop a witch trial! And I will favorite you on youtube! :)
Christie - you're killing me with the Bones reference. GOOD. ONE. Bones is all smart and she doesn't fall for Booth's nonsense. Booth is hot-a-licious and loves Bones because she's smart and sassy and doesna take his shite. I haven't watched in quite a while but did catch it recently and was shocked that they were talking about their own relationship. Wow. PS - I "knew" (used loosely) Dave B. in high school. He went to a local prep school and I used to see him at my school's football games. He was friendly with some of my friends and everyone knew who he was because his dad was our local weatherman... and I remember walking by him and saying "Hi" and being excited that Dave B said "Hi" to me. Back then he used to have a big boy haircut and wear Patagonia jackets. He was adorable.
Erin's going to ComicCon! Woot! Philly chicks abound! Dave B went to Malvern Prep, by the way. And M. Night Shyamalan lives in Malvern now. It freaks me out. It was never that hip when I lived there.
(TRacey - remember the Malvern Meeting House?)
Jeanie - good point - I can't get past the fact that Jamie took Murtagh - no matter what he knew or didn't know about Geillis.
Megs: You had me at "15 Hour Fight". At least I know one person will agree with my latest blog. :)
Welcome Miranda! 14 and clearly you know good literature when you see it. Good for you for being such an avid reader at your age. I have to admit I spent way too much time watching MTV when I was 14. Although that was in the stone age when they actually played music on MTV.... but I digress.. ;)
I am reading Dragonfly in Amber for the second time, the first being 8 or so years ago. I started them again after watching the Starz Outlander series. I just finished the part where Collum shows up and asks Prince Charles to bring him Claire then asks for Claire and Jamie. Collum talks with Jamie about his mother but he really wanted to know if he should commit the MacKenzie's to the battle. Once discussed and Jamie tells him no, Collum says to Claire that he almost rescued her when she and Geillis were being tried and said he supposes he was glad he didn't. What did me mean - glad because why? Maybe I missed something, but that piece of dialogue puzzled me. -Christina - not really anonymous,
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