SPOILER ALERT: Dinna read unless ye have read An Echo in the Bone.
Thanks to our Purgatory bud, Danette, for reminding me of something that I left out of the last post.
Another thing that caused my latest musings: I remember reading that Diana didn't want the readers to think Jamie was dead - and I started thinking "Well why did Claire even have to think he was dead? WHY did she HAVE to sleep with Lord John??" And that's when it all fell into place. I am starting to think Tracey is correct; Jamie will forgive Claire in the first 50 pages (after some punishment, right Karen?!) and they will go back to the Ridge - and William will go with them. And even if they don't go back to the Ridge - William and Jamie WILL form a father/son bond...and the infidelity was necessary to allow Jamie to allow himself to hurt Lord John in that way.
WORD.
On compuserve DG was asking fans what cliff hanger they wanted cleared up first and alot of people were saying they wanted to know what happened to Jem. I want to know what happens with the horridness that is the Jamie/Claire/LJ triangle. What about you guys?
ReplyDeleteOoo! Me likey your hypothesis Carol! I agree :)
ReplyDeleteI agree Elizabeth. Love me some Jem but JAMIE CLAIRE! JAMIE CLAIRE! JAMIE CLAIRE!!! :)
ReplyDeleteElizabeth can you link me to that question on CS (Karen if you see this, do you know where it is?) I'd love to post that on the blog so we can all weigh in over at Compuserve!
ReplyDeleteClaire/LJ/Jamie triangle MUST BE up first. OMG, can you imagine if she puts that one off for chapters and chapters? No way.
ReplyDeleteI'll put money on it--there will be a DAMN FINE MMMMPPHHMMM between Claire and Jamie by page 50. Set your clock by it.
Which, OMG, makes me think of an AWESOME contest. Once we get close to the Book 8 date, we should have a pool to guess the page on which the first Jamie/Claire mmmphm DOES happen.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't it be cool if it was page 1 Tracey and then she explains later. Le Sigh. We can dream.
ReplyDeleteCarol-I tried looking it up but to be honest it was a little while ago, I don't even remember the actual topic, and I am not sure if it was current. Compuserve is like a big web to me! Karen any ideas?
Tracey: LUVS IT! Let's do it. And I think we have to do something special - at the very least a video - when we reach 100 followers (only 11 more to go!) I know that's not a big deal to some websites... but it's a huge deal to me. :)
ReplyDeleteInteresting thought: will Jamie really "punish" Claire? After all, she really did think he was dead. I'm not saying there won't be some sort of make-up mmmphhhmmming, but I don't know that it will happen because Jamie is mad at Claire per se. Circumstantially, yes; because she betrayed him, no.
ReplyDeleteAlso, is it possible that Bree and Roger can't/won't go back because it would be too hard to keep Jemmy and Mandy from talking about the future?
I'll just throw a number out there...Page 29!!! The first mmhrf..and I am looking forward to it, yes I am. "Never another but me"! Oh, I can just see it now...
ReplyDeleteI can see where you're coming from on the whole Willy/Jamie/LJ scenario, Carol. Jamie needs an excuse or whatever you might call it, to have a relationship with Willy. I also agree with Tracey that LJ held off on telling Willy the truth, since he kind of promised Jamie he would never tell, didn't he? Or was it just an unwritten rule between Jamie and LJ, that the secret would remain?
I do believe that Jamie and Willy will form a relationship, but it willna be easy, and I'm sure there will be some shouting going on between them. They are both big, strong, Scottish men, right?
Anyway, I hope they all go back to The Ridge, but I have a feeling they will be in Boston for a while, and we might even get some more insight on Fergus and Marsali's life in the big city.
I think it is a given Jamie will forgive Claire, because the whole series is really based on their relationship and if that is in a shambles, then the whole series is also.
ReplyDeleteOther than that, I think Jamie will be harder on John than he will be on Claire. Jamie will understand Claire was grieving and drunk, but Jamie may have expected John's sense of honor to keep him from using Claire, especially the second time. Although both John and Claire used each other, I wonder if Jamie will hold John to a higher standard.
However, Claire and John did not do anything wrong, so I am curious to see how they both defend themselves to Jamie, especially if Jamie is not understanding at first.
I don't envy John in the next book. He has to contend with Jamie and Willie. It is certainly understandable that Willie hates Jamie, but can you imagine how Willie feels about John now? He trusted and loved John and now he finds out John has kept the truth from him all these years. The only way it could worse if Willie also finds out John is gay (if he doesn't know already).
Carol,
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think there was a need for a LJ/Claire encounter for Willy to find out about Jamie being his father? From what I remember, he figured it out when he saw Jamie "in the flesh", so all DG would need is a face to face encounter between Willy and Jamie, there was no need for Claire & LJ to do the nasty.
I agree with the others that the LJ/Claire/Jamie triangle will be dealt with in the first 50 pages. Then she'll move on to stuff we probably haven't even thought of. Did anyone for-see the Lizzy 3some? Did anyone contemplate the possibility of a dwarf? How about all these new characters that need to be developed... i.e. Michael, Joan, Rachel Hunter, etc... There's lots to read about!
I agree with Sally...I wonder whether there really needed to be a LJ/Claire encounter when just the face to face encounter would suffice to being the Jamie/Willie relationship out in the open.
ReplyDeleteI am also wondering what role Jenny has in all this - seems that DG went to great lengths to bring her to America.....there must be a reason.
J
Sally / J - I don't think the Claire/LJG encounter had to happen so Willy could find out about his father. That could have happened in any number of ways. I think Claire had to sleep with LJG to give Jamie a solid reason to be so mad at LJG that he'd go against his wishes, in this case, where Willy is concerned. If LJG hadn't slept with Claire, Jamie might feel such loyalty to him that he might still take the back burner and let LJG continue to be THE father figure in Willy's life - once Willy knew the truth. But because Jamie is now going to feel so betrayed, he won't care if he's betraying LJG by taking over his role as "father". Just the opposite - he may diligently pursue the relationship with William.
ReplyDeleteI think the Claire-Jamie-LJ situation will be anticlimactic. Jamie will be grateful to LJ for protecting Claire and taking care of her "needs". LJ was a good husband to Isobel and he would have been to Claire, too.
ReplyDeleteA child of Jamie reaching adulthood before discovering he's the daddy and being mad about being kept in the dark? Sound familiar? DG's been there and done that with Bree so the Willy story will go in a completely different direction because she won't repeat herself. Willy is poor now and may turn to LJ because LJ has money and connections and not care about Jamie at all.
A lot of the Ridgers turned on Claire after the Malva murder and let her be taken away. Yes, I want to see the Dream House be built on the Ridge, but Jamie and Claire can build a house and a life somewhere else.
I love this fodder! Willie is not poor, he is still the legal 9th Earl of ..... He was born legitimately - he still gets all the marbles.
ReplyDeleteI still can't believe that Jamie didn't punch LJ when he found out he slept with Claire! He just said something like, "Really? Why?"
ReplyDeleteSeriously??? Well, I admit, he is no "20-something" hot head anymore, but that is incredibly civil, don't you think? I mean, we're talking Jamie...an incredibly feeling, emotional, and jealous man when it comes to his wife.
Although, this nonchalant attitude about Claire seemed to be going on for awhile. I had begun to feel it when Claire and Jamie were first contemplating their potential separation...when Ian was dying and Claire was asked to go to America for Henry Christian. I have to say I was quite disappointed in Jamie allowing Claire and he to be separated indefinately...on separate continents! I mean, I understand Claire felt he needed to stay w/ Jenny...to help her through Ian dying and such. But, come on. How could he let Claire go, not knowing how long he'd be at Lallybroch... and then France! Why couldn't he go with her, and then go back to France. I know, I know...logistics and circumstances. But still...
And, I have to say that I didn't appreciate when he wrote from France, and admitted he looked at other women. I realize this was probably meant to show how sure they were of each other's love, and fidelity,(a hem), but I still felt it was kind of inappropriate. Afterall, Claire is no spring chicken. I just can't help but think if it was reversed, Jamie would have been hurt and oh so jealous.
Frankly, this whole entire part of the story really bothered me...if you can't tell. I didn't like that Jamie seemed to choose Jenny over Claire. It just seems like whenever Jenny is involved, Claire gets the raw end of the deal. In my humble opinion, Jamie puts up with way too much from his sister. She is so controlling - pushing him around one minute, then preying on his sympathies the next. And, I can't believe he basically put up w/ Jenny blaming Claire for not helping Ian! It just makes me mad that he didn't stand up for Claire more than he did. To me, it just seems that Jenny manipulates him...and he is clueless about it.
Bottom line: I want Jamie to always choose Claire and never allow them to be separated by anyone or anything! My goodness, they were separated for 20 years! Is that not enough?
I'm just starting "The Fiery Cross" And I can't wait to get to "Echo in the Bone" But also want to savor every minute with Jamie. But for the LOVE I'm wondering when the Gathering will END!!! Anyway, I just needed to get that out, sorry for the totally off subject. And I haven't read Echo but I can't imagine that Jamie will be mad at Clair for to long.
ReplyDeleteCarol, Jamie doesn't seem to have understood that Claire and LJG had consummated their marriage at the time of the confrontation at the house with Willie. I think Jamie was under the assumption that John had done an honorable act to protect Claire for Jamie's sake, and knowing John was gay, did not assume the marriage had been consummated. I belive that is why Jamie asked John "Why?" when LJG admitted to carnal knowledge of Claire.
ReplyDeleteI think the reason Jamie admitted his paternity to Willie was because Willie had finally become suspicious and was putting two and two together. I think that Jamie also realized it may be the last time he would see Willie. He was on the run from the English, he didn't know how things would turn out, especially taking John hostage. Everything was up in the air and there was no way to predict whether any of them would see each other again. It was a desperate attempt to claim his ownly son, even though nothing would come it since those that heard Jamie already knew and therefore it could be kept a secret if Willie so desired.
This is completely off-topic, so forgive me. But reading about how we all miss JAMIE! And CLAIRE! Reminded me of a moment I had the other day with my other half. He and I were discussing baby names (no, there is no bun in the oven...). We asked each other to come up with a favorite boy name and then a favorite girl name. There were only two names I could summon to mind: Jamie, short for James. And Claire.
ReplyDelete...It's an illness!
P.S. You should have seen the epic eye roll I got in response.
ReplyDeleteTerry - Agree on the anticlimactic thing. Agree on the "we've seen this before" thing. Agree on the "they can set up camp wherever they are" thing. And that's all I got to say about that! (said like Forest Gump)
ReplyDeleteL - Hmm...thinking...thinking...you are right - he "technically" is still the Earl. But with his honor - combined with two fathers chock full of honor - I don't know that he'll let himself be. GREAT topic. This is one of the things I am on the edge of my seat about.
Danette - I am having one, big, huge AGREEfest with your commentary. You totally sound like me. Be careful. I usually get a little flack for daring to disagree with our beloved James Fraser. It's a slippery slope around here. ;)
Molly - Forgive me - I canna remember - is this your first read? And LORDDDDDD the Gathering! Beth M. is stuck there too!
Jane - all good points! But I'm not talking about when Jamie revealed his paternity ("you're a stinkin' Papist!" GOD I loved that!) I'm surmising about what he's going to do in Book 8 now that Willy KNOWS he's his father. Canna WAIT!
Melissa - that is SO funny. I feel that way about naming my DOG! We got her last summer and named her "Bella" and I got a lot of flack from people thinking I named her for "Bella Swan" in Twilight. Seeing as I don't really like Bella Swan in Twilight, the answer was a big, emphatic "NO!" But NOW - after reading Outlander? OMG there are a TON of Gaelic names I wish I'd have come up with. At least my son is "Ian", right? ;) And PS - I FEAR the eye roll you must have gotten in response! LOL!!
Yes this is my first read. And I am going to go crazy when I am done with all of them and have to wait for book 8. d'ye ken when it will be out.
ReplyDeleteCarol, I had a feeling I was walking on thin ice.
ReplyDeleteMolly you are inspirational because I wouldn't have come near this blog - or at least this thread - until I was finished. Lordddddddd the Gathering!
ReplyDeleteDanette - No worries. Tracey will give you her "Jamie Fraser is a man with flaws" lecture and you will feel much better. ;)
My God! I am so addicted to this blog. You guys are hilarious and it's nice to know that my Outlander obsession is in fact an epidemic and not something that can put me in the nuthouse anytime soon.
ReplyDeleteCase in point: my daughter recently aquired a turtle....now, my Sassenachs... what do you think she named it? (with a little nudging from me) That's right, Turtle Soup! And everytime I look at that turtle, I think of Jamie Fraser and that glorious scene in Voyager.
I don't suffer from my addiction. I love every minute of it.
After reading Diana's books for so many years, I don't try to predict what she will do next b/c I'm always wrong.
ReplyDeleteAnd Molly - The Firey Cross is my least favorite of the books b/c it takes so damn long to get through the Gathering.
And on the topic of naming animals after characters.... my mini-dach is Mac, short for McKenzie. I have told my husband that down the road I want a femal mini-dach and will name her Sassy short for... drum roll please... Sasanach.
ReplyDeleteI can only think of one reason why Claire and LJG had to have carnal knowledge of each other. Has Claire gone thru menopause yet?? My sister is a "menopause" baby. Never expected it. Could Claire get pregnant??!!! I know she was having hot flashes and symptoms of menopause but so was my mom when she got pregnant. AND since she was drunk and didn't expect to sleep with LJG she probably didn't think of any precautions. DEAR GOD!!!!
ReplyDeleteLOL Sanderson--I think at this point Claire is maybe 62, so the chances of pregnancy are verra slim. And actually, I believe she pretty much put the kibash on the pregnancy thing in ABOSAA after the abduction, when she tells Jamie that there's no way she'd be pregnant, so his fears are unfounded.
ReplyDeleteOMG! Sanderson11, you have totally freaked me out! That would be horrible!!!! Oh I hope that isn't the case. But, nothing would surprise me anymore. Could that be why Claire and Jamie had to be apart for so long? So there would be no doubt who the father was...LJG? And, with Jamie not there to keep track of her cycles, (which he always did), and her drunk, it could happen! No, no, no...say it ain't so!
ReplyDeleteI didn't think Claire was quite that old. When they were first at Jocastas' and Jamie was questioning whether to accept her offer of inheriting River Run he said he was "40 and 5". That would make Claire 49. Have 13 years passed? That would make Germaine almost 13 since Marsali was in Jamacia about to give birth when Claire and Jamie first came to River Run. Was he that old when his family owned the print shop? I was thinking that Claire was in her mid 50's. I didn't really start menopause 'til I was 55. Don't get me wrong..I would HATE for Claire to be pregnant by LJG but.....
ReplyDeleteoh my!!! that would be interesting!!!! sanderson11 I never thought of that before. what I have thought is...what if Claire has to continue married to LJG for a time to get the English off of Jamie and they have to convince William to go along with the plan. Who saw Jamie so far - just family. William could say his name was Mackenzie and it wasn't Jamie. I don't know maybe that wouldn't fly. But I thought that maybe they would have to do that without a choice because also Claire was about to be arrested and that was why LJG had to marry her - to protect her right. Then later when things have cooled down Claire could meet Jamie -where ever- and maybe he's using an assumed name too - someone had mentioned before that maybe they would go to Boston for a time. Would anyone really know who Jamie is up there. He could become Alex Mackenzie again while he's doing his printing thing- or something. Hee Hee...just musings my sassenachs!!!!
ReplyDeleteand....wouldn't make sense too, because Jamie wanted to publish some nasty stuff about the war- why wouldn't he do it as one of his "aka's". So they wouldn't go back to the ridge right away because Jamie already said they couldn't do what he needs to do from there. Hmmmm..... ok I'll stop now!!!
ReplyDeleteTracy wins the prize for best quote of the day: "I don't suffer for my addiction; I love every minute of it."
ReplyDeleteSanderson wins the prize for best "what if" - holy CRAP that would be a great storyline, even though I don't see it happening. But can you imagine?! Jamie's not the ONLY ONE who can have a kid who's not both of theirs. NICE concept.
Mrs Mush - you are so right because I have been wrong plenty-o-times. It's just fun to "what if". And these thoughts do come to me - like I'm sure they come to all of you - when I'm doing very menial things like brushing my teeth or falling asleep. It's as if these people truly exist and I'm going to see them in a little while after I fold the laundry and put the outdoor cushions away because it's going to rain. And PS - LORDDDDDDDDD THE GATHERINGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RE: Claire getting pregnant--well, this is 1778, 35 years after she went through the stones the first time at age 27, so yeah, she's about 62. An LJ baby would be an interesting complication, but I dinna think it's in the cards for her...
ReplyDeleteNow, LJ/Claire having to STAY marrit for whatever reason? Hmmm....that would be an interesting kettle of fish, certainly. Let me ask you this--are the English soldiers aware of who he is? Or do they think he's just some guy doing spy work? It would be very Indiana Jones where he almost rescues Marion, but then realizes it's better for all their sakes if she stays captive for a while longer, no? Hmmmm....
In any case, you may or may not have seen that HERSELF posted a book 8 excerpt on CS the other day--it's what happens RIGHT AFTER "Oh? Why?" I haven't read it--but if you're interested, go to the MOP twitter feed for the link. AND DINNA DISCUSS HERE PLEASE AS WE DINNA READ BOOK 8 EXCERPTS--CAROL _WILL_HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU IF YOU SPOIL. LOL You've been warned....
PS--Meant to ask above whether the English soldiers are aware of who JAMIE is....
ReplyDeleteno - I believe they do not know who Jamie is. (leaves to go re-read that part in Echo)
ReplyDeletewell 62 would be pushing it I guess. I can't hardly stand this wondering and waiting!!! I wasn't so upset with Claire and LJG although I thought Claire was a bit flip the morning after the night before. She married him to protect Fergus and his family. It's just that I think Diana should have spent more time on the shock and sorrow that the family must have gone thru. How did Fergus and his family feel? What about young Ian? We needed more time with Claire. Did Jamie know that everyone thought he was dead? I am about 2/3 thru my re-listen of Drum of Autumn. Maybe when I get to the re-listen of Echo it will make more sense?
ReplyDelete