Hope you don't mind hearing from someone with a different opinion on Tobias's acting(outlander only).
While I think that Tobias is a solid performer, I don't see him as a great one. Best thing on TV right now? Not even the best thing on outlander. IMO of course.
I really liked the work that he did in the first season, but haven't been impressed with either his Frank nor his BJ this season. With each appearance, this season, I like his work less. Because, I feel as if I'm just seeing way to much of the same old stuff. For example. He appears on the screen (pops out because that is the way they film him---to stand out or make a grand entrance. After he gets the big intro they go right to the confront Claire scene, grab her by the elbow and monolog at each other while making angry faces at each other. Then have her break away and storm off. Rinse and repeat. blah & one note (for me) Perhaps, he is just too busy with other jobs that he isn't spending time on defining his characters on Outlander. Frand and BJR are much more "blended" this season.
And I hated the way OTT beating of the dead body. I'd bet that this reaction was Tobia's idea. Similar to his wanting to use Marley's body as a mattress as he raped Jamie in season one. JUST SAY NO PRODUCTION CREW!
Hey guys, My prediction for next episode. We will start in the 60s and go back to the night before Culloden for the last half. Murtagh will kill BJR to save both Jamie and Mary. Hope we get to see more of the battle than shown in the books.
Also, I thought golf claps were sarcastic, but I just may have watched too much SNL in my youth.
Love you both. Drambuie and rye (Canadian rusty nail) for me next week.
Unfortunately, there may be no "night before Culloden" to go back to. Unless I'm misreading their definition of "tomorrow" (ie,dawn vs. post midnight), we are already there. Im sad, but not the least bit surprised.
dolittle - I am getting the shakes upon reading your comment because I hadn't considered that and you make a great point. Only time will tell. I have been very cool with some of my favorite book scenes/dialogue being left out over the last two seasons...but if the "night before Culloden" doesn't happen, I may end up sucking my thumb in the corner while rocking back and forth. Ron has talked Culloden battle scenes in Season 3...so perhaps we're looking at a flashback next season??? 😬
Hey! Loved your recap as usual! My first thought about the title was the Doug Flutie reference, as in J & C trying anything they can think of to snatch the Clans from the jaws of defeat, but it really could refer to all three of your theories!
SPOILER ALERT: Re: Jamie escorting BJR to his room in the book, I've kept wondering if it was somehow tied to Jamie waking up on Culloden Moor with BJR on top of him; like they had a conversation that somehow led to BJR having a part in Jamie's experience during the battle. And although the horror of Culloden itself could bring on the amnesia, whatever BJR's involvement was, it was so traumatic that his mind blocked it out. ??? But considering it's Jamie, it's hard to imagine what it would have to be to traumatized Jamie that much...
I don't really want to think about the events coming in the finale! But I don't think Claire and Jamie will kill BJR... I think he'll die, though.
Two weeks! It's like a mini droughtlander! Arrggghhh!
I had such high hopes for this episode. To finally know what they said to each other on that walk back to Randall's rooms"............. but no, instead we got more boring meetings, the still incredible shrinking TV Jamie and the longest death of a character no one gives two sugar honey iced teas about! That being said, Tobias Menzes was amazing. He really is totally mesmerizing to watch. Deserves his own show. I really want a BJR back story too! I want answers to that "tell me you love me, Alex' business. If they're going to save Murtagh and Rupert, let's go all the way and save BJR too. BJR and Lord John in the same scene would be amazing. I'd be afraid for John. However, it was apparently Tobias's idea to have BJR beat his brother's corpse because he felt that the original reaction was "too cliche"... OK. Cliche for 1985 maybe, but viewers have graduated to watching people feed babies to dogs. The punching was cliche for 2016. It felt like Outlander trying to be GOT. I felt like BJR would have started pounding on Mary before he would have hurt Alex. BJR talked smack to Claire the entire time he was asking her for help... the character was crazy enough.
When I read the book I didn't totally buy that Jamie would be so nice to BJR. However, considering that Jamie thought that he was going to die at Culloden, his faith, the fact that he'd lost his own brother and that by then they had both hurt each other badly, it sort of made sense. We never got to see that final exchange though. I feel robbed. Anything could have happened. Was it closure before BJR ends up as crow food? More details in book 9 maybe?! I was shocked when TV Jamie sent Murtagh. Even episode 11 Jamie wouldn't have sent Murtagh! Hell no. He would have insisted on being there...growling and making Scottish noises. TV Jamie plays a much smaller role. It's a shame. It didn't have to play out exactly the same way as it did in the books, but I thought it was important to see that tension between them. If this turns into some Bonnie and Clyde TVism, I'm going to be super bummed.
I did enjoy Mary calling Claire out on the Alex stuff. That was great. At this point I have no idea what will happen. My expectations are low. Perhaps Jamie and Claire will lure and kill Randall (a la GOT), Dougal will die by accident and TV Jamie will send Claire home with a passionate forehead kiss. After this episode I'm sort of looking forward to Droughtlander and dreading Season 3.
No, no, no!!! I'm so afraid that Ron will keep BJR in Season 3 so he can watch Tobias work! Don't even hint at this!! He can play Frank all he wants, but I've had enough BJR. I will be severely disappointed if all we get is a forehead kiss goodbye in the finale. Grrr! My OL group has decided to watch Poldark during the first part of Droughtlander, then make OL Christmas ornaments, maybe a quilt of different plaids showing our real or imaginary clan affiliations.
JANE - do we have a date for Poldark's return??? All I read was "this fall." LOVE LOVE LOVE me some Poldark!! That's another one Tracey and I should be making videos for, along with TURN, Washington's Spies! :)
Anon, best line in a comment this season, "the still incredible shrinking TV Jamie". BTW, I think Sam Heughan should get the emmy simply for being forced to communicate without dialogue. His facial expressions have always said so much, but they could have given the guy a break and thrown him a few more lines (or left him the ones written for him, if you read the scripts on Starz). Just saying!
Quick note - the thorn apple Claire uses for Alex harkens back to Season 1, when on the road, collecting the rents, she gave it to Ned Gowan to ease his asthma.
OK, regarding why I think Black Jack was violently punching Alex after he died...I think it may fit in with what Tracey was saying in her Darth Vader comparison and there being some good underneath all the evil, at least when it came to Black Jack's treatment/feelings for Alex. IF there is any good in him, or any chance to be redeemed, Black Jack cannot stand to be reminded of it. His feelings upon the death of his brother showed (for like 2 seconds, as Tracey pointed out) that he did have a heart and compassion for another (albeit his own brother). Black Jack cannot seem to cope with these type of compassionate feelings or an introspective thought that he may be (partially) redeemed or show some of the good underneath. He then overcompensates with terrible violence at this foreign sensation of caring. This is similar to the conversation he has with Claire in Season 1 in "The Garrison Commander" about trying for some redemption or turnaround, after which he shows his true colors and violently beats Claire until Dougal rushes in.
I may be totally wrong and he's a soulless monster and the beating was merely for shock value.
dolittle - very interesting comment. Never thought of it that way. I always looked at the books as equal relationship between Jamie and Claire. That's what makes their relationship so special and enduring. Hopefully, season 3 will bring Jamie to the equal of Claire and show he's just as educated and wise as Claire. He's no dummy and it needs to be shown instead of him being made to look like Claires puppy dog to be led by the nose.
Ok, I tracked down the actual quote (which wasn't as painful as I feared). It's better than my lazily abbreviated attempt at retelling it. This is a response to DG from her DH regarding some viewers' distress over a perceived lack of Jamie in the series: "They don't realize that the show thinks it's telling Claire's story, and Jamie is an important part of it. What _you're_ doing is telling Jamie's story all the time, through Claire. That's your particular magic, to make those two be part of each other, and no TV show could ever do that."
My response would be that the series still owes it to the source material, it's writer, and it's fans to try a little harder to better balance J and C. They, TOGETHER, are the heart of this story.
Dolittle, thanks for the quote from DG's DH. Too right! I do think the show could at least try to give us some indication of Jamie Fraser's qualities that made Claire and a host of readers love him! But sadly the show gives us none of the passion and admiration Claire feels for Jamie. It's been a disappointment to me after having high hopes from some of the episodes in season one. I love the Jamie and Claire love story at the heart of the books. Too bad it's not part of the Outlander TV Show. Sigh.
Great quote from DG's DH. The problem is that got much closer to communicating that in the show in season 1 - on TV. I don't think it would be impossible at all to show that the two are part of each other (sorry DH, maybe not as well as DW), Claire describes it well enough to in episode 1 - when Jamie isn't there. You can actually see Jamie's love for Claire this season, IMO, and very little of her passion for him.
The last episode will probably start with Claire and Bree taking the trip to Scotland, then Claire will tell the truth to Bree. The battle of Culloden will be interjected into her story to Bree and Rodger will come in to give geneology research. I think it will stay pretty close to the book so it can set up for season 3. I do think they didn't give Jamie his due through the whole season. He was almost like a back character and not the main character as he is in the books. I get it that it's Claire telling the story, but putting Jamie in the corner isn't the way it is in the book. No wonder he isn't winning any accolades and awards - just saying
>> I get it that it's Claire telling the story, but putting Jamie in the corner isn't the way it is in the book.<<
This comment reminded me of something I read on CompuServe recently. DG posted that her husband once told her what he saw as the difference between the show and books. The gist of what he said is that the series is presenting this as Claire's story, whereas DG wrote it more as Claire telling the story of Jamie. I thought that was a very astute observation.
I'm reading these comments so far after the fact and I have to stop replying because I agree with so many! I just have to add one more agreement because I feel terrible that Sam Heughan, as well as Jamie, does not receive the attention he deserves: scripts, accolades, awards all come together. I think Tobias Menzes is a fantastic actor, but compare the material he gets, particularly this season, with that given to Sam and its night and day.
I want to have your babies, Diane (and that's impossible, what with me being female). But we are SO in sync on the Jamie/Sam thing, I just had to say AMEN! Also commenting after the fact ....
I have never really been disappointed in the series, but if Jamie "seeing his wife safe" does not happen exactly, EXACTLY like the book, I will be heartbroken. Heartbroken for those who have only the show to know the story of Claire and Jamie Fraser.
SPOILER Alert!!
Everything from the awful scene with Dougal, the frightened and frantic running, telling Murtaugh what he had done, and giving him orders to gather the men while he "sees his wife safe", the slow realization by Claire as to where Jamie is heading with her, her initial refusal to "go back", Jamie's telling her it's to protect their child (which she hadn't realized till that moment that she was pregnant), the cottage, their tender lovemaking, their discovery by the Redcoats, their violent (and desperate) lovemaking, Jamie's orders to her to run to the stones. Oh my! It HAS to be just like the book - how could they possibly improve on it?
And didn't we find out about Jamie waking up with BJR on top of him in Voyager? I always pictured it in my mind - which is fuzzy, I know, and I sometimes overlook obvious details - that during the battle, Jamie comes across BJR. Murtaugh is fighting close by, and rushes to his side just as Jamie falls, injured. Murtaugh and BJR then fight to their deaths, with BJR falling on top of Jamie. I don't know if I remember it this way, or just made it up in my own mind, because when we do hear it, we hear it from Jamie's point of view, and he can't remember.
Anyway, I doubt we see BJR's death this season. My two cents.
Tracey, I love the calendar idea. I laughed out loud! Great recap, you two!
Jesus H Roosevelt Christ, that Prince Charles Edward Louis John Casimir Sylvester Severino Maria Stuart is SUCH an annoying twit. The actor who plays him should get an Emmy. Was the real Bonnie Prince really like him? His costume is amazingly like the real guy here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Edward_Stuart#/media/File:William_Mosman_-_Prince_Charles_Edward_Stuart,_1720_-_1788._Eldest_son_of_Prince_James_Francis_Edward_Stuart_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
Terry Dresbach did an amazing job with all the costumes.
I believe that BJR doesn't know how to handle his emotions in a normal way and reacts with brutality. It's like people who cut themselves.
I saw in the preview Dougal coming towards Jamie and Claire with a sword... So we know what's coming there. I always wished they had confided in him about Claire. I don't know if he would have believe them but I never knew why they didn't use it to more of an advantage.
I always thought BJR saved Jamie because in a sick way he loved him.
"I always thought BJR saved Jamie because in a sick way he loved him." Thanks for mentioning this! Agree! On the show BJR isn't as obsessed with Jamie. We don't see him begging him to tell him that he loves him or saying his name pleadingly when they meet again in France. It's not going to happen now, but it would have been amazing watching Tobias play "BJR in love".
As I have only read Outlander once, and years ago, the only change that jumped out at me was Jamie NOT being there to walk BJR back to his room. I really do hope the writers try to follow the book as well as possible, for this last episode.
I wonder how long DrOughtlander will last this time around (a full year? maybe Fall 2017?)
The DG impression (Carol) - wonderful. More! More! Also, have to say that the two of you relate to each other just as I do with my younger sister (2 years in between) - spot on.
LOL Lou...I have been doing that for years...but not on camera. I love doing impressions and Herself is a pretty easy one for me, unlike ANY time I try to do Scot-Speak, which is a complete disaster. 😂
Now, I know why I'm so disappointed by this show. DG keeps saying that Outlander is not a love story (when she's with RDM); HOWEVER, I saw her on CBS Sunday Morning and she said, "At its heart, Outlander is a love story." So, while she KNOWS, of course that it IS a love story, she has let RDM turn this into outlander - the Battlestar Galatica edition...ugh...ugh...ugh. But that's just speculation as I have never seen BG (on purpose). I guess that's why we keep getting these violent streaks every single episode. Even if we don't have a war scene, there WILL be violence.
As far as the final episode, I think either Rupert or Murtagh are going to kill BJR, although I'm REALLY hoping it will be Jamie!
Anyhoo, as usual, you girls are the best, funniest, and most entertaining of all. Seriously, if it weren't for you two, I probably wouldn't be watching. So, a big thank you!
Accuracy would be nice. Whether with or without the presence of RDM DG has NEVER said that Outlander was not a LOVE story. She has ALWAYS said that Outlander is not a ROMANCE novel - big difference, folks! Please do not misrepresent in order to prop up your own opinions.
Please give me the strength to sit back and enjoy the visual beauty of tv Outlander as it is presented....wait a minute, what the holy heck is Tobias Menzies doing?!?! Did he get confused with which show he was on? I loved watching Simon Callow do a little two step scene stealing, but Tobias's read of Alex's death bed scene (it was his idea I believe) seemed completely indulgent. Since BJR is not long for the show, are we now going to get Tobias's interpretation of 1960s Frank as a father getting high with Brianna?? And maybe RDM can insert a BSG reference with All Along the Watchtower playing in the background!
Remember that Tobias once had the bright idea of using that dead body of BJR's giant flunky (the guy Jamie killed who was laying in the cell throughout the episodes where BJR raped Jamie) as a MATTRESS upon which BJR would rape Jamie(!!!). Ron D. Moore thought that was BRILLIANT and was all for it!! Apparently he and Tobias were talked down by Maril and Matt (don't remember the position of Anna Foerster on that idea). So Tobias is either TRULY BENT or wants everyone to think he is. And why not? Got him a part in Foerster's latest zombie-vampire-apocalypse flick.
Now that JJ Feild's character is done on Turn (which I'm still teary about...no more Major Andre? Seriously? sigh...why do they have to be so historically accurate, dammit!), Outlander should cast him as Lord John Grey! JJ for LJG!
YES please to JJ Feild as LJG. He would be purrfect! Can you just see Sam and JJ playing chess, squaring off. (how on the edge of your seat has TURN been this season btw?!?)
Now that I've seen the finale, I can say - honestly - with the greatest respect for JJ Feild:
YES PLEASE GOD IN HEAVEN MAKE THIS HAPPEN FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY IN THIS WORLD!!!
LOL Does that show you how on board I'd be with this? I will grieve John Andre until the day I die. I am a googling MACHINE today. (Peggy Shippen's WIKI is chock full of good stuff, too!)
WHAT?! OMG!!!!!!!!! I haven't seen the past 8 episodes of TURN:WS and now I just read [totally goose bumping as I write] that JJ Fields dies?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All I have to say is THANK GOD! I have been telling everyone that he should play LJG for the longest time! My second choice is Tom Mison [hope Sleepy Hollow gets canceled] so he can do it ONLY if JJ isn't available. Carol, I think we need to draft him! RR's fans kept at it until he got the role of Roger :)
I have to say I feel disheartened with the show by this time. I am admittedly one of those who started to watch mainly because I was looking forward to see my favorite fictional male character come to life: JAMMF. In the book Clair’s behavior sometimes also is unbearable for me - but I do love her for her love and appreciation for Jamie.
But I haven’t seen Jamie in the show – and I gave up all hope that I ever will as long as RDM is the show-runner. Jamie is by now nothing but a supporting character, used, if at all, for decorative purposes only (not that I am complaining about that) He gets crappy lines – if he gets screentime at all - he has to either sit around saying nothing at all or has to have Clair tell him what to do.I really have the feeling that RDM actually despises the actor who plays Jamie AND Jamie the fictional character aswell. He has given many indications in his podcasts and interviews that both observations are true. If I wouldn’t know from the books, I wouldn’t even understand at this point why Claire loves Jamie and was so very melodramatic at the beginning of the season that she had to go back to Frank. She blames Jamie for having lost their child in Paris (I don’t even want to talk about this unbearable hour of television) and by know she seems to blame him for not being able to change history. To a an even lesser extent I understand why Jamie should love Claire, this bossy, humorless woman, that gives the same suffering, reproachful face in every scene, every minute of the show and treats Jamie either like an unmannerly child or ignores HIS feelings and HIS suffering completely.
I am done with Balfe’s Claire (melodramatic, one-dimensional and not entertaining AT ALL) and I am after this episode done with Menzies Black Jack as well - and I surely don’t want to see his Frank. I enjoyed, Murtagh, Dougal and Colum in this episode and throughout both seasons and I’ve decided to leave the show with them. By the way: Somebody who has already watched the finale said that the majority of the time is spent in the 1968. Seems that we get another 90 Minutes of the suffering of the BALFE and I certainly don’t want to watch that…and I won’t.
Clara, I very much agree with your comments above especially growing to love book Claire BECAUSE she loves Jamie so much. There has been no indication in the show this season that Claire loves Jamie as she does in the books. With all the voice overs giving Claire's view point not once did they give one where she is watching Jamie from afar and loving everything about him. In the books she is constantly thinking of him, about him, appreciating him and desiring him. But I do think that RDM has no notion of the attraction that Jamie Fraser has for the reading audience. He has completely missed the boat in connecting the two main characters to each other and to the audience. I also enjoyed TV show Murtagh, Dougal and Colum as well as Rupert and Angus. I am not a big fan of Tobias's acting ... I saw him in Rome and in GOT and don't find his style that appealing. I hated his punching his dead brother. I'm really sick of the show at this point. I also am tired of angry, snotty remarking, know it all Claire. Guess it's time to tune out for me too.
Sadly, I'm feeling the same way. Probably we all went into this series with our expectations set too high, DG is one tough act to follow. Can a man with a track record of action/sci-fi, testosterone driven series,like RM has,reeeealy do this love story justice? Here's my take on the Alez beating scene...maybe its best we never know what damaged BJR, its sufficient to know something tragic happened to him, something that perhaps involved Alex. Whatever it was, it created the twisted, soulless creature we know. Alex is his one link to humanity, caring or feelings. I think the extreme reaction and eventually needing to be helped away is be ause he now knows there is no barrier between him and madness. Melodramatic? Perhaps... Do I believe that Jamie would have helped this man who had attempted rape of his sister and wife; had in fact, raped his foster son and himself? Of course not! Well,THAT was long winded....nough said about BJR. Hopefully RM has gotten him out of his system and we can give this book series one more try next season. I'm afraid my patience is wearing thin, and may need to erase my memries of this lackluster 2 seasons and re-read the books for the 4th time. Ba k to the characters I hold dear, and DG's vision for them. Sad
I always SO enjoy your recaps - they are funny and always point out scenes in the show that I might not link to the books as I am a pretty casual book reader of the series. This is why I just gauge it as television, and not focus on how close it is to the book. This probably explains why I am always asking - did this happen in the book???? I can't follow on That's Normal on Kindle, it just does terrible auto-correct and my questions come out nonsensical! I can never find a clear link, so it was almost over before I tuned in. I think Carol was feeling missing TURN, but it is hard to get a word edgewise in with those ladies. And their opinions are theirs. I find mine match up more with your overviews. It was a little hurried with two deaths in one episode, and a lot of angst drama - which was okay, but I was truly offended of RDM going along with Tobias' script change of beating on Alex. There are times when actors need to act and showrunners need to make the decisions. I can't believe this was in the original script. RDM has made no bones that he has a preference to Tobias, and I think it fits in with liking to do the darker sides of the show. In the true lead up to Culloden, there were very grievious strategic and tactical mistakes the Scots made that made the English victory fairly quick. BPC definitely played a part in these bad judgements, but the English had the weapons to get the job done. I have no idea how the 90 minutes will go, but if we lose Murtagh, that is a loss. The script lines for him were so well done and Duncan just embodied him in such a way I think we all have deep affection for his character. Jamie is definitely the "bees knees" when it comes to the kilt, knees and boots. Best looking knees ever! Those gym workouts and his climbs have paid off! Wonderful work ladies on a pretty uneven and not the most satisfying season - this was not an "all in" episode for my tastes, so let's hope they end on a great note.-jefsantamonica
I enjoyed this episode (NOT the weird post-death smackdown). And really, I didn't mind the changes, like Jamie not being there at the awkward wedding. That being said, what I DO mind is Jamie and Claire having barely 5 seconds together. They are about to be apart for 20 years! Give us something to show us they more than 'like' each other! I am beyond frustrated by this season and Ron Moore. He doesn't seem to care at all about the love story. If the finale does not deliver, I am canceling starz. It's the Caitrina and Tobias show, and that's not the Outlander I love. They have to know that a large percentage of fans aren't gushing with adoration this time around. They did so much right in the first season-- and I know every season of TV shows will have a few misses (the search? Good grief). A few episodes that are off are to be expected. But changing the core characters is not okay. (speaking of OK, I found it jarring when Mary said you're going to be OK. did they use that kind of slang back then?)
So much fun, you 2!! You had me interacting out loud through the whole video today :D
One thought: When the lightbulb goes on over Claire's head after Mary tells her she's pregnant with Alex's baby, i was imagining the thought flashing through Claire's head was, "Oh sh!t Jamie really could have killed Jack Randall earlier!!"
Carol and Tracey, I am now looking forward to your recaps MORE than the actual show. I love all the chuckles, comparisons to other shows and movies, your spoiler alert from Big Bang Theory makes me chuckle every time. You have kept me watching what has become a ho hum tv show just so I can relate to your reviews. I love the books. I liked most of the first season. I love some of the tv characters but sure don't like the over all loss of the core Jamie Claire story. You keep on reviewing and I'll keep watching just so I can laugh with you.
I have to say I enjoyed this episode. Colum and Dougal were great, so were BJR and Alex. The contrast between the 2 sets of brothers' relationships was interesting. I didn't have an issue with what BJR did when Alex died. I don't think it was really that violent, and quite frankly it is something I would expect from him. He has no idea what to do with emotions and he was mad at Alex for leaving him. It made more sense to me than him sitting at the bedside crying would have. I see comments about the change of Jaime not being there during the wedding/walking BJR back to his room. I think it would've been hella weird if that happened.
I'm going to throw in my opinion as a non-reader. Take it for what you will.....I honestly don't see what others do in regards to Jaime not being front and center. It is being told from Claire's point of view, so hers will be the main voice, but I don't feel the show is making Jaime some kind of background character. I mean I fell in love with the man! I'm not sure that could happen if the character wasn't being developed or given attention. As for the lack of love story - I again don't really see that. Everything that has happened has been connected to Jaime and Claire's love for each other. Jaime went through hell for Claire. Claire gave of herself for Jaime. They are trying to stop Culloden in order to save those they love and to have the life they want together. So, yeah that's a love story to me. Of course I would like to see more romantic/lovey scenes with them, but I think it all comes down to the amount of material vs. the time they have per season. Perhaps they focused on some things that readers feel would've been better spent on something else, but it's still good stuff to me. Maybe after reading the books I'll have a different opinion. At this point though, the show makes me happy and that's all I can ask for as a viewer. I wish it could be the same for book readers.
If you're really enjoying the show, you're probably better off waiting until the series is over to check out the books. It'll be like loving a really high end TV dinner and then having the real meal at a 3 star Michelin Restaurant and then going back. Trust, you'll taste that freezer burn.
Thank goodness there is at least one person here who is enjoying the show through the objective viewpoint of a non-book reader! I swear, I'm starting to think a lot of book readers are comparing the show to the subjective fanfiction they have built up in their own minds rather than the actual books themselves. I've read the books myself and totally disagree with most of the complaints expressed here. In the books, Jamie is a secondary character with ZERO POV until Voyager. The first two books are Claire's story - Period. The show has, in fact, given Jamie more prevalence than the books did! Unless you want 50% of the screen time to be devoted to a mindless drumming of Claire voice over you are not going to get a fully realized true-to-life Jamie plus Claire's doting impression of him at the same time. Some of the things that are being complained about upstream are straight out of the pages of the books! Sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. I do sincerely hope that those who are chronically dissatisfied with the show cancel their subscriptions and go on to live happy lives. Then maybe we can discuss this show based on its own merit as opposed its comparison to a bunch of people's head cannon!
hmmmm...Last12C, guess you aren't open to differing opinion but only want to discuss the show with those who totally agree with your view point.
I'm glad this blog has allowed all manner of views and comments. I happen to appreciate seeing the comments of those who agree with me and those who don't. Gives me a chance to view the show from a perspective different than my own.
Different strokes for different folks. Insulting people for their opinions of how the show should adapt the story is very unfriendly. I have found this blog so far to be a pretty friendly space open to everyone's opinion.
Well, Teresa, I suppose it's just too bad if you don't like MY opinion. I guess you think that your opinion is more important than mine is. I don't have a problem with other people's OPINIONS. I have a very real problem when opinions are supported with false and misleading information.
Wow, Last12C, you seem to be taking critiques of the show super personally. Lighten up, no one is trying to hurt your feelings:) You can express all of your satisfaction without getting nasty with others here. It's just a TV show. You can't control what other people like and don't like, but you can control if you're starting an interesting discussion or just spreading some funky juju. Be cool and bless you. Let us know how you like the books when you finally read them:)
No, as I said, I have no difficulty with other people's opinions. Again, as I said, I have a problem with people assigning motives to the person of RDM that are false, attributing problems with the source material to the adaptation team and speaking disrespectfully of RDM and the writers. I consider THOSE things to be very unfriendly personal attacks. Once again, as I said, I AM a book reader. I have read the entire series, The Exile and every single novella multiple times beginning with the first printing of Outlander 20+ years ago. And I have participated on discussion forums devoted to this series for more than 10 years. I didn't get nasty with ANYONE. The points that I mentioned in my first post are not opinion - they are totally impersonal facts that are being accurately perceived by the non-book readers, but not by some of the book readers, with speculation as to why that was. Those who have responded to my posts are the ones taking things personally and dishing the snark. A lot of folks seem to want SAY they respect other people's opinions and then they take offense to people who disagree with them, as the poster above did, accusing me of insulting people simply because I disagreed with some of the complaints being made - which I did without pointing fingers. There appears to be a double standard operating here hiding under expansive claims of welcome and respect.
I'm glad you are enjoying the show for what it is. I am a long time book reader and think they have done a fabulous job!
Just started the marathon rewatch this weekend, and it is interesting to see the subtle moments between Jamie and Claire that I missed the first time through when I was watching for plot and comparing the show to the books (I try to put the book down, but it is impossible).
I don't think they are making Jamie less, if anything, they have given him too much. Jamie has his own POV way earlier than the books, so he doesn't have to be stuck to Claire to have a story. I think maybe that is what many book readers are upset about, in the book we only see Jamie when he is with Claire, but in the show he can do stuff on his own. This results in less time with the two of them together, which everyone seems to miss.
I recommend a whole series rewatch to everyone, to pay particular attention to all the small, quiet moments with Jamie and Claire together.
Great post, Gail! I totally agree! I thoroughly enjoyed the Marathon this weekend and appreciated every episode all the more. That sense of continuity really pulled everything together with wonderful results. Jamie and Claire's love is EPIC! Halfway through Season One I started watching the show on StarzPlay with CC almost exclusively because I realized how much detail I was missing watching on the TV - even with a large high def screen!
Hey Last12C - actually, I don't see how you backed up your points in the first post at all. I see you saying that things complained about were straight out of the books, but no particulars. I see that you get huffy about perceived disrespect of RDM and the other writers. One thing you should know, you can look it up on the CompuServe Writers forum ~ DG said that the books are Jamie's story from Claire's POV. The show has clearly decided to make it Claire's story and emasculate Jamie. Even non-book reading show watchers notice. It's natural that people interested and curious enough to engage in places like this would look to assign motives for Jamie's emasculation, particularly when there is so much of it show after show. The show is better than most out there, but it could be even better if *someone* made some smarter decisions about how to use great actors and great source material. They seem to be overly concerned with making sure what they perceive to be a dense viewing audience "gets it" and using Tobias Menses as much as they possibly can and assigning anything clever or important to Claire. One more thing - yes, my opinion is more important than yours, Last12C. Pound away at those keys in indignation.
Guys -- Some of these comments bear the telltale earmarks of certain TROLLS who stalk the interwebs. They're up to no good. DO NOT engage them and they will lose interest and go away. You know who you are. Some of us came to MOP to get away from you. Please take pity and leave us alone!
Carol, Reading the books you didn't have to wonder that BJR would be at Culloden three days after the crushing blow of Alex's death because it didn't happen that way. The events around Alex's death take place in Edinburgh in the winter (which the show completely ignores, hence the time jump), not in Inverness in April.
I enjoy watching your videos. I enjoy watching the TV show and I enjoy reading the books. Most people appear to be comparing the book to the show. I on the other hand am comparing the show and the books to other TV shows and books available to watch and read. So I have no complaints and am grateful for such creative individuals and their ability to share that creativity with us.
I'm seeing so much discontent with season 2 and I'm wondering if all of the book readers were so excited during season one to see our beloved books finally come to the screen that some of the magic has worn off this season. Looking back to some of the first episodes, I have noticed that the production has certainly gotten more grand this season but maybe some of the essence of the books is a bit off. I, for one, don't think it's about the lack of sex but more about the beautiful, swoon worthy words that book Jamie has for Claire. The prayer that Jamie spoke over the sleeping Claires was beautiful and I think we've missed THAT Jamie. I'm still loving it and appreciate the hard work that goes into each week's episode. Voyager is my 2nd favorite so I can't wait and hope the writers are listening to us and include the feelings as well as the action. Thanks Carol and Tracy. You are the best and continue to make me laugh every week. You're honesty about what you like and don't like are never snarky - just hilarious.
Totally agree!^ I am so happy to see DG's beloved books come to life on on the screen - of course the adaptation is different. In fact, the minor differences give we who already know the end from the beginning, some little surprises. I would be soooo disappointed if the complainers caused any kind of slump in viewership, and it was cancelled. Yikes! Can't even!
THANK YOU B!!! 😘 I have never been good at snark (although sometimes it does make me giggle.) We just chit chat about what we see. And interestingly, sometimes I change my mind after we make a video. I'll see an episode, say how I felt, and then watch again or think about it in a different light after someone points something out, and totally have a change of heart. It's a girl's prerogative to change her mind, right? ;)
PS - I cannot believe this but I've been spelling - and hearing - prerogative incorrectly my entire life until this comment. LOL!!
On the two death scenes: both sets of brothers had a strange and difficult upbringing, far from similar. I liked how their stories were intertwined throughout the episode. Dougal's reaction, a more normal one at the loss of one's big brother, versus BJR's, who is unable to process or understand his emotional state. The show just keeps getting better and better in every respect. The costumes, the setting, the writing, it's all so very good. I've read all the books, and am rereading DIA now. One comment for the viewers who are dissatisfied with Claire/Jamie's portrayals: I suspect you may not be fans of historical fiction, and would be happier with a romantic Lifetime-style movie. Ron Moore, if you're reading this, job well done!
Hi, love your video chats! So funny but also interesting and make me think again on things. I didn't see if anyone commented on BJR history and why he's like that. It's kind of a SPOILER TO BOOK 8. They don't give to much details but they show him when he just arrived to Scotland and he was very kind to Brian Fraser and tried to help him. It's implied that something happened and the behaviour of the barbarian Scots made him disillusioned.- Adi from Israel
I’ve tried hard to work up a positive attitude before I posted my comments, but it’s just not coming. This episode left me depressed. It’s not a bad episode in and of itself – there are some excellent scenes and performances – but it sits so heavy on our timeline. The battle is supposed to be “tomorrow,” so no last night together for Claire and Jamie because there’s no time (grrrr!). There’s barely time to accomplish the other things we know should happen along with the rush to the stones. A lot of 1968 stuff will need to be thrown in, and we’ll need time to meet new characters. Oh, I expect they will throw us a meaty scene of separation in the finale, to get us to cry and to try to make us forget how much was lost and wasted in this very unbalanced season. Do I sound bitter?
As a book reader, I can see that hindsight and foresight are both a bitch. There are so many precious jewels of dialog, scenes, characters, and relationship moments in the books, but this season has rested too heavily on the strings of a plot line that should have been strong enough to hold more of those jewels and balance out this story. Since we already know (from the very beginning of the season) that the plan to stop Culloden fails, so much time and focus should not have been spent on the mechanics of trying to stop that lost cause. We needed more character moments, more relationship moments, more scenes of highlander family life and all that stands to be lost. We should have also been seeing the story of how, despite trials, heartbreak, failures, war, separation, and time, two extraordinary people can build a love that strengthens and endures. That’s the story that keeps me reading the books. I may pick up interesting facts along the way, but I am there for Claire and Jamie. History lessons are only a bonus.
In the finale, I think we’ll see Dougal’s death - hopefully without blackening Claire’s character any more. She was reluctant in the book, and she was relieved when Jamie didn’t agree with her suggestion. I'm very worried about Murtaugh, but I hope we see Jamie dispatch him to send the Lallybroch men home. I hope we see a beautiful parting scene between Fergus and his “parents.” Mostly, I want Claire and Jamie to have, in both dialog and action, the shamelessly beautiful and heart-wrenching parting they deserve. I want this season to at least end doing right by the source material, its writer, and its fans.
I read that there are four new writers for Outlander, and that three are women. Ira Behr has left, so counting RDM, there are now three men and five women writers. All the new writers are were unfamiliar with the books, but they are reading them. I wish they would read some fan comments as well.
I meant to ask in my previous comment, did I see wee Fergus pretend to be sleeping with this head on the table, eyes open, listening to Jamie and Claire as they talked about being unable to change history?
I want to make a comment or two before the Finale. I thought Episode 212 was interesting to watch. I really enjoyed the death scene with Dougal...he was wonderful, and was totally repulsed by BJR's beating on his brother. It seemed ridiculous to me, OVERkill for sure. Shocking. Some people say the love scene whiners are complaining too much, but I do hope for some farewell sex in the Finale: I could swear I heard Jamie say "I need ye, Claire" in one of the preview videos, once, but can't find it. Just a little quickie, please. Otherwise, I am sure they will throw everything at us in the Finale. It will be exciting and oh so sad. I hope we hear some our favorite speeches from Jamie. Sam is doing a wonderfuljob as Jamie, and when I binge-watched the season, when I could, I could see the development of his healing and bravery. I don't see Jamie in a corner at all. I do NOT see enough Jamie and Claire, but I've mentioned that already. I am SO looking forward to your Finale video. Carol, are you going to discuss The Bees in your Diana voice?
Hope you don't mind hearing from someone with a different opinion on Tobias's acting(outlander only).
ReplyDeleteWhile I think that Tobias is a solid performer, I don't see him as a great one. Best thing on TV right now? Not even the best thing on outlander. IMO of course.
I really liked the work that he did in the first season, but haven't been impressed with either his Frank nor his BJ this season. With each appearance, this season, I like his work less. Because, I feel as if I'm just seeing way to much of the same old stuff. For example. He appears on the screen (pops out because that is the way they film him---to stand out or make a grand entrance. After he gets the big intro they go right to the confront Claire scene, grab her by the elbow and monolog at each other while making angry faces at each other. Then have her break away and storm off. Rinse and repeat. blah & one note (for me)
Perhaps, he is just too busy with other jobs that he isn't spending time on defining his characters on Outlander. Frand and BJR are much more "blended" this season.
And I hated the way OTT beating of the dead body. I'd bet that this reaction was Tobia's idea. Similar to his wanting to use Marley's body as a mattress as he raped Jamie in season one. JUST SAY NO PRODUCTION CREW!
ReplyDeleteHey guys,
ReplyDeleteMy prediction for next episode. We will start in the 60s and go back to the night before Culloden for the last half. Murtagh will kill BJR to save both Jamie and Mary. Hope we get to see more of the battle than shown in the books.
Also, I thought golf claps were sarcastic, but I just may have watched too much SNL in my youth.
Love you both. Drambuie and rye (Canadian rusty nail) for me next week.
Therese
i agree with you Therese about the finale and how it will play out. Not sure about how BJR will meet his maker, but meet HIM he shall.
DeleteUnfortunately, there may be no "night before Culloden" to go back to. Unless I'm misreading their definition of "tomorrow" (ie,dawn vs. post midnight), we are already there. Im sad, but not the least bit surprised.
DeleteDrambuie and Rye! I may have to try that, Therese!!! :)
Deletedolittle - I am getting the shakes upon reading your comment because I hadn't considered that and you make a great point. Only time will tell. I have been very cool with some of my favorite book scenes/dialogue being left out over the last two seasons...but if the "night before Culloden" doesn't happen, I may end up sucking my thumb in the corner while rocking back and forth. Ron has talked Culloden battle scenes in Season 3...so perhaps we're looking at a flashback next season??? 😬
DeleteHey! Loved your recap as usual!
ReplyDeleteMy first thought about the title was the Doug Flutie reference, as in J & C trying anything they can think of to snatch the Clans from the jaws of defeat, but it really could refer to all three of your theories!
SPOILER ALERT:
Re: Jamie escorting BJR to his room in the book, I've kept wondering if it was somehow tied to Jamie waking up on Culloden Moor with BJR on top of him; like they had a conversation that somehow led to BJR having a part in Jamie's experience during the battle. And although the horror of Culloden itself could bring on the amnesia, whatever BJR's involvement was, it was so traumatic that his mind blocked it out. ??? But considering it's Jamie, it's hard to imagine what it would have to be to traumatized Jamie that much...
I don't really want to think about the events coming in the finale! But I don't think Claire and Jamie will kill BJR... I think he'll die, though.
Two weeks! It's like a mini droughtlander! Arrggghhh!
I had such high hopes for this episode. To finally know what they said to each other on that walk back to Randall's rooms"............. but no, instead we got more boring meetings, the still incredible shrinking TV Jamie and the longest death of a character no one gives two sugar honey iced teas about! That being said, Tobias Menzes was amazing. He really is totally mesmerizing to watch. Deserves his own show. I really want a BJR back story too! I want answers to that "tell me you love me, Alex' business. If they're going to save Murtagh and Rupert, let's go all the way and save BJR too. BJR and Lord John in the same scene would be amazing. I'd be afraid for John. However, it was apparently Tobias's idea to have BJR beat his brother's corpse because he felt that the original reaction was "too cliche"... OK. Cliche for 1985 maybe, but viewers have graduated to watching people feed babies to dogs. The punching was cliche for 2016. It felt like Outlander trying to be GOT. I felt like BJR would have started pounding on Mary before he would have hurt Alex. BJR talked smack to Claire the entire time he was asking her for help... the character was crazy enough.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read the book I didn't totally buy that Jamie would be so nice to BJR. However, considering that Jamie thought that he was going to die at Culloden, his faith, the fact that he'd lost his own brother and that by then they had both hurt each other badly, it sort of made sense. We never got to see that final exchange though. I feel robbed. Anything could have happened. Was it closure before BJR ends up as crow food? More details in book 9 maybe?! I was shocked when TV Jamie sent Murtagh. Even episode 11 Jamie wouldn't have sent Murtagh! Hell no. He would have insisted on being there...growling and making Scottish noises. TV Jamie plays a much smaller role. It's a shame. It didn't have to play out exactly the same way as it did in the books, but I thought it was important to see that tension between them. If this turns into some Bonnie and Clyde TVism, I'm going to be super bummed.
I did enjoy Mary calling Claire out on the Alex stuff. That was great. At this point I have no idea what will happen. My expectations are low. Perhaps Jamie and Claire will lure and kill Randall (a la GOT), Dougal will die by accident and TV Jamie will send Claire home with a passionate forehead kiss. After this episode I'm sort of looking forward to Droughtlander and dreading Season 3.
No, no, no!!! I'm so afraid that Ron will keep BJR in Season 3 so he can watch Tobias work! Don't even hint at this!! He can play Frank all he wants, but I've had enough BJR. I will be severely disappointed if all we get is a forehead kiss goodbye in the finale. Grrr! My OL group has decided to watch Poldark during the first part of Droughtlander, then make OL Christmas ornaments, maybe a quilt of different plaids showing our real or imaginary clan affiliations.
DeleteJANE - do we have a date for Poldark's return??? All I read was "this fall." LOVE LOVE LOVE me some Poldark!! That's another one Tracey and I should be making videos for, along with TURN, Washington's Spies! :)
DeleteOMG...I want to hate Poldark and Aiden Turner.... but it's sooo good!
DeleteAnon, best line in a comment this season, "the still incredible shrinking TV Jamie". BTW, I think Sam Heughan should get the emmy simply for being forced to communicate without dialogue. His facial expressions have always said so much, but they could have given the guy a break and thrown him a few more lines (or left him the ones written for him, if you read the scripts on Starz). Just saying!
DeleteQuick note - the thorn apple Claire uses for Alex harkens back to Season 1, when on the road, collecting the rents, she gave it to Ned Gowan to ease his asthma.
ReplyDeleteOK, regarding why I think Black Jack was violently punching Alex after he died...I think it may fit in with what Tracey was saying in her Darth Vader comparison and there being some good underneath all the evil, at least when it came to Black Jack's treatment/feelings for Alex. IF there is any good in him, or any chance to be redeemed, Black Jack cannot stand to be reminded of it. His feelings upon the death of his brother showed (for like 2 seconds, as Tracey pointed out) that he did have a heart and compassion for another (albeit his own brother). Black Jack cannot seem to cope with these type of compassionate feelings or an introspective thought that he may be (partially) redeemed or show some of the good underneath. He then overcompensates with terrible violence at this foreign sensation of caring. This is similar to the conversation he has with Claire in Season 1 in "The Garrison Commander" about trying for some redemption or turnaround, after which he shows his true colors and violently beats Claire until Dougal rushes in.
ReplyDeleteI may be totally wrong and he's a soulless monster and the beating was merely for shock value.
dolittle - very interesting comment. Never thought of it that way. I always looked at the books as equal relationship between Jamie and Claire. That's what makes their relationship so special and enduring. Hopefully, season 3 will bring Jamie to the equal of Claire and show he's just as educated and wise as Claire. He's no dummy and it needs to be shown instead of him being made to look like Claires puppy dog to be led by the nose.
DeleteOk, I tracked down the actual quote (which wasn't as painful as I feared). It's better than my lazily abbreviated attempt at retelling it. This is a response to DG from her DH regarding some viewers' distress over a perceived lack of Jamie in the series: "They don't realize that the show thinks it's telling Claire's story, and Jamie is an important part of it. What _you're_ doing is telling Jamie's story all the time, through Claire. That's your particular magic, to make those two be part of each other, and no TV show could ever do that."
DeleteMy response would be that the series still owes it to the source material, it's writer, and it's fans to try a little harder to better balance J and C. They, TOGETHER, are the heart of this story.
Dolittle, thanks for the quote from DG's DH. Too right! I do think the show could at least try to give us some indication of Jamie Fraser's qualities that made Claire and a host of readers love him! But sadly the show gives us none of the passion and admiration Claire feels for Jamie. It's been a disappointment to me after having high hopes from some of the episodes in season one. I love the Jamie and Claire love story at the heart of the books. Too bad it's not part of the Outlander TV Show. Sigh.
DeleteGreat quote from DG's DH. The problem is that got much closer to communicating that in the show in season 1 - on TV. I don't think it would be impossible at all to show that the two are part of each other (sorry DH, maybe not as well as DW), Claire describes it well enough to in episode 1 - when Jamie isn't there. You can actually see Jamie's love for Claire this season, IMO, and very little of her passion for him.
DeleteThe last episode will probably start with Claire and Bree taking the trip to Scotland, then Claire will tell the truth to Bree. The battle of Culloden will be interjected into her story to Bree and Rodger will come in to give geneology research. I think it will stay pretty close to the book so it can set up for season 3. I do think they didn't give Jamie his due through the whole season. He was almost like a back character and not the main character as he is in the books. I get it that it's Claire telling the story, but putting Jamie in the corner isn't the way it is in the book. No wonder he isn't winning any accolades and awards - just saying
ReplyDelete"No one puts Jamie in a corner!"
Delete>> I get it that it's Claire telling the story, but putting Jamie in the corner isn't the way it is in the book.<<
DeleteThis comment reminded me of something I read on CompuServe recently. DG posted that her husband once told her what he saw as the difference between the show and books. The gist of what he said is that the series is presenting this as Claire's story, whereas DG wrote it more as Claire telling the story of Jamie. I thought that was a very astute observation.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI'm reading these comments so far after the fact and I have to stop replying because I agree with so many! I just have to add one more agreement because I feel terrible that Sam Heughan, as well as Jamie, does not receive the attention he deserves: scripts, accolades, awards all come together. I think Tobias Menzes is a fantastic actor, but compare the material he gets, particularly this season, with that given to Sam and its night and day.
DeleteI want to have your babies, Diane (and that's impossible, what with me being female). But we are SO in sync on the Jamie/Sam thing, I just had to say AMEN! Also commenting after the fact ....
DeleteI have never really been disappointed in the series, but if Jamie "seeing his wife safe" does not happen exactly, EXACTLY like the book, I will be heartbroken. Heartbroken for those who have only the show to know the story of Claire and Jamie Fraser.
ReplyDeleteSPOILER Alert!!
Everything from the awful scene with Dougal, the frightened and frantic running, telling Murtaugh what he had done, and giving him orders to gather the men while he "sees his wife safe", the slow realization by Claire as to where Jamie is heading with her, her initial refusal to "go back", Jamie's telling her it's to protect their child (which she hadn't realized till that moment that she was pregnant), the cottage, their tender lovemaking, their discovery by the Redcoats, their violent (and desperate) lovemaking, Jamie's orders to her to run to the stones. Oh my! It HAS to be just like the book - how could they possibly improve on it?
And didn't we find out about Jamie waking up with BJR on top of him in Voyager? I always pictured it in my mind - which is fuzzy, I know, and I sometimes overlook obvious details - that during the battle, Jamie comes across BJR. Murtaugh is fighting close by, and rushes to his side just as Jamie falls, injured. Murtaugh and BJR then fight to their deaths, with BJR falling on top of Jamie. I don't know if I remember it this way, or just made it up in my own mind, because when we do hear it, we hear it from Jamie's point of view, and he can't remember.
Anyway, I doubt we see BJR's death this season. My two cents.
Tracey, I love the calendar idea. I laughed out loud! Great recap, you two!
Carla
Jesus H Roosevelt Christ, that Prince Charles Edward Louis John Casimir Sylvester Severino Maria Stuart is SUCH an annoying twit. The actor who plays him should get an Emmy. Was the real Bonnie Prince really like him? His costume is amazingly like the real guy here:
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Edward_Stuart#/media/File:William_Mosman_-_Prince_Charles_Edward_Stuart,_1720_-_1788._Eldest_son_of_Prince_James_Francis_Edward_Stuart_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
Terry Dresbach did an amazing job with all the costumes.
I believe that BJR doesn't know how to handle his emotions in a normal way and reacts with brutality. It's like people who cut themselves.
ReplyDeleteI saw in the preview Dougal coming towards Jamie and Claire with a sword... So we know what's coming there. I always wished they had confided in him about Claire. I don't know if he would have believe them but I never knew why they didn't use it to more of an advantage.
I always thought BJR saved Jamie because in a sick way he loved him.
"I always thought BJR saved Jamie because in a sick way he loved him."
DeleteThanks for mentioning this! Agree! On the show BJR isn't as obsessed with Jamie. We don't see him begging him to tell him that he loves him or saying his name pleadingly when they meet again in France. It's not going to happen now, but it would have been amazing watching Tobias play "BJR in love".
After last week's recap, I'd like to request more of Carol's DG impersonation.... spot on!
ReplyDeleteLOL Helen! I am so doing that next week then!!! ☺️
DeleteAs I have only read Outlander once, and years ago, the only change that jumped out at me was Jamie NOT being there to walk BJR back to his room. I really do hope the writers try to follow the book as well as possible, for this last episode.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how long DrOughtlander will last this time around (a full year? maybe Fall 2017?)
The DG impression (Carol) - wonderful. More! More! Also, have to say that the two of you relate to each other just as I do with my younger sister (2 years in between) - spot on.
:)
LOL Lou...I have been doing that for years...but not on camera. I love doing impressions and Herself is a pretty easy one for me, unlike ANY time I try to do Scot-Speak, which is a complete disaster. 😂
Deletegeillis' baby is Rogers ancestor
ReplyDeleteNow, I know why I'm so disappointed by this show. DG keeps saying that Outlander is not a love story (when she's with RDM); HOWEVER, I saw her on CBS Sunday Morning and she said, "At its heart, Outlander is a love story." So, while she KNOWS, of course that it IS a love story, she has let RDM turn this into outlander - the Battlestar Galatica edition...ugh...ugh...ugh. But that's just speculation as I have never seen BG (on purpose). I guess that's why we keep getting these violent streaks every single episode. Even if we don't have a war scene, there WILL be violence.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the final episode, I think either Rupert or Murtagh are going to kill BJR, although I'm REALLY hoping it will be Jamie!
Anyhoo, as usual, you girls are the best, funniest, and most entertaining of all. Seriously, if it weren't for you two, I probably wouldn't be watching. So, a big thank you!
Accuracy would be nice. Whether with or without the presence of RDM DG has NEVER said that Outlander was not a LOVE story. She has ALWAYS said that Outlander is not a ROMANCE novel - big difference, folks! Please do not misrepresent in order to prop up your own opinions.
DeleteHail Mary full of grace.....
ReplyDeletePlease give me the strength to sit back and enjoy the visual beauty of tv Outlander as it is presented....wait a minute, what the holy heck is Tobias Menzies doing?!?! Did he get confused with which show he was on? I loved watching Simon Callow do a little two step scene stealing, but Tobias's read of Alex's death bed scene (it was his idea I believe) seemed completely indulgent. Since BJR is not long for the show, are we now going to get Tobias's interpretation of 1960s Frank as a father getting high with Brianna?? And maybe RDM can insert a BSG reference with All Along the Watchtower playing in the background!
Remember that Tobias once had the bright idea of using that dead body of BJR's giant flunky (the guy Jamie killed who was laying in the cell throughout the episodes where BJR raped Jamie) as a MATTRESS upon which BJR would rape Jamie(!!!). Ron D. Moore thought that was BRILLIANT and was all for it!! Apparently he and Tobias were talked down by Maril and Matt (don't remember the position of Anna Foerster on that idea). So Tobias is either TRULY BENT or wants everyone to think he is. And why not? Got him a part in Foerster's latest zombie-vampire-apocalypse flick.
DeleteNow that JJ Feild's character is done on Turn (which I'm still teary about...no more Major Andre? Seriously? sigh...why do they have to be so historically accurate, dammit!), Outlander should cast him as Lord John Grey! JJ for LJG!
ReplyDeleteYES please to JJ Feild as LJG. He would be purrfect! Can you just see Sam and JJ playing chess, squaring off. (how on the edge of your seat has TURN been this season btw?!?)
DeleteNow that I've seen the finale, I can say - honestly - with the greatest respect for JJ Feild:
DeleteYES PLEASE GOD IN HEAVEN MAKE THIS HAPPEN FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY IN THIS WORLD!!!
LOL Does that show you how on board I'd be with this? I will grieve John Andre until the day I die. I am a googling MACHINE today. (Peggy Shippen's WIKI is chock full of good stuff, too!)
WHAT?! OMG!!!!!!!!!
DeleteI haven't seen the past 8 episodes of TURN:WS and now I just read [totally goose bumping as I write] that JJ Fields dies?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All I have to say is THANK GOD!
I have been telling everyone that he should play LJG for the longest time! My second choice is Tom Mison [hope Sleepy Hollow gets canceled] so he can do it ONLY if JJ isn't available.
Carol, I think we need to draft him! RR's fans kept at it until he got the role of Roger :)
Mel
I have to say I feel disheartened with the show by this time. I am admittedly one of those who started to watch mainly because I was looking forward to see my favorite fictional male character come to life: JAMMF.
ReplyDeleteIn the book Clair’s behavior sometimes also is unbearable for me - but I do love her for her love and appreciation for Jamie.
But I haven’t seen Jamie in the show – and I gave up all hope that I ever will as long as RDM is the show-runner. Jamie is by now nothing but a supporting character, used, if at all, for decorative purposes only (not that I am complaining about that) He gets crappy lines – if he gets screentime at all - he has to either sit around saying nothing at all or has to have Clair tell him what to do.I really have the feeling that RDM actually despises the actor who plays Jamie AND Jamie the fictional character aswell. He has given many indications in his podcasts and interviews that both observations are true.
If I wouldn’t know from the books, I wouldn’t even understand at this point why Claire loves Jamie and was so very melodramatic at the beginning of the season that she had to go back to Frank.
She blames Jamie for having lost their child in Paris (I don’t even want to talk about this unbearable hour of television) and by know she seems to blame him for not being able to change history.
To a an even lesser extent I understand why Jamie should love Claire, this bossy, humorless woman, that gives the same suffering, reproachful face in every scene, every minute of the show and treats Jamie either like an unmannerly child or ignores HIS feelings and HIS suffering completely.
I am done with Balfe’s Claire (melodramatic, one-dimensional and not entertaining AT ALL) and I am after this episode done with Menzies Black Jack as well - and I surely don’t want to see his Frank.
I enjoyed, Murtagh, Dougal and Colum in this episode and throughout both seasons and I’ve decided to leave the show with them.
By the way: Somebody who has already watched the finale said that the majority of the time is spent in the 1968. Seems that we get another 90 Minutes of the suffering of the BALFE and I certainly don’t want to watch that…and I won’t.
Clara
Clara, I very much agree with your comments above especially growing to love book Claire BECAUSE she loves Jamie so much. There has been no indication in the show this season that Claire loves Jamie as she does in the books. With all the voice overs giving Claire's view point not once did they give one where she is watching Jamie from afar and loving everything about him. In the books she is constantly thinking of him, about him, appreciating him and desiring him. But I do think that RDM has no notion of the attraction that Jamie Fraser has for the reading audience. He has completely missed the boat in connecting the two main characters to each other and to the audience. I also enjoyed TV show Murtagh, Dougal and Colum as well as Rupert and Angus. I am not a big fan of Tobias's acting ... I saw him in Rome and in GOT and don't find his style that appealing. I hated his punching his dead brother. I'm really sick of the show at this point. I also am tired of angry, snotty remarking, know it all Claire. Guess it's time to tune out for me too.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThe above are tough comments, but I find myself agreeing with about 85% of the contents. Good for you for having the courage to say it.
DeleteSadly, I'm feeling the same way. Probably we all went into this series with our expectations set too high, DG is one tough act to follow. Can a man with a track record of action/sci-fi, testosterone driven series,like RM has,reeeealy do this love story justice?
DeleteHere's my take on the Alez beating scene...maybe its best we never know what damaged BJR, its sufficient to know something tragic happened to him, something that perhaps involved Alex. Whatever it was, it created the twisted, soulless creature we know. Alex is his one link to humanity, caring or feelings. I think the extreme reaction and eventually needing to be helped away is be ause he now knows there is no barrier between him and madness. Melodramatic? Perhaps...
Do I believe that Jamie would have helped this man who had attempted rape of his sister and wife; had in fact, raped his foster son and himself? Of course not!
Well,THAT was long winded....nough said about BJR. Hopefully RM has gotten him out of his system and we can give this book series one more try next season. I'm afraid my patience is wearing thin, and may need to erase my memries of this lackluster 2 seasons and re-read the books for the 4th time. Ba k to the characters I hold dear, and DG's vision for them.
Sad
I always SO enjoy your recaps - they are funny and always point out scenes in the show that I might not link to the books as I am a pretty casual book reader of the series. This is why I just gauge it as television, and not focus on how close it is to the book.
ReplyDeleteThis probably explains why I am always asking - did this happen in the book????
I can't follow on That's Normal on Kindle, it just does terrible auto-correct and my questions come out nonsensical! I can never find a clear link, so it was almost over before I tuned in. I think Carol was feeling missing TURN, but it is hard to get a word edgewise in with those ladies. And their opinions are theirs. I find mine match up more with your overviews.
It was a little hurried with two deaths in one episode, and a lot of angst drama - which was okay, but I was truly offended of RDM going along with Tobias' script change of beating on Alex. There are times when actors need to act and showrunners need to make the decisions. I can't believe this was in the original script. RDM has made no bones that he has a preference to Tobias, and I think it fits in with liking to do the darker sides of the show.
In the true lead up to Culloden, there were very grievious strategic and tactical mistakes the Scots made that made the English victory fairly quick. BPC definitely played a part in these bad judgements, but the English had the weapons to get the job done.
I have no idea how the 90 minutes will go, but if we lose Murtagh, that is a loss. The script lines for him were so well done and Duncan just embodied him in such a way I think we all have deep affection for his character.
Jamie is definitely the "bees knees" when it comes to the kilt, knees and boots. Best looking knees ever! Those gym workouts and his climbs have paid off!
Wonderful work ladies on a pretty uneven and not the most satisfying season - this was not an "all in" episode for my tastes, so let's hope they end on a great note.-jefsantamonica
I enjoyed this episode (NOT the weird post-death smackdown). And really, I didn't mind the changes, like Jamie not being there at the awkward wedding. That being said, what I DO mind is Jamie and Claire having barely 5 seconds together. They are about to be apart for 20 years! Give us something to show us they more than 'like' each other! I am beyond frustrated by this season and Ron Moore. He doesn't seem to care at all about the love story. If the finale does not deliver, I am canceling starz. It's the Caitrina and Tobias show, and that's not the Outlander I love. They have to know that a large percentage of fans aren't gushing with adoration this time around. They did so much right in the first season-- and I know every season of TV shows will have a few misses (the search? Good grief). A few episodes that are off are to be expected. But changing the core characters is not okay. (speaking of OK, I found it jarring when Mary said you're going to be OK. did they use that kind of slang back then?)
ReplyDeleteStill laughing at "the weird post-death smackdown." ROFLMAO!
DeleteSo much fun, you 2!! You had me interacting out loud through the whole video today :D
ReplyDeleteOne thought: When the lightbulb goes on over Claire's head after Mary tells her she's pregnant with Alex's baby, i was imagining the thought flashing through Claire's head was, "Oh sh!t Jamie really could have killed Jack Randall earlier!!"
And Carol, thanks for mentioning the control-command-spacebar keyboard short cut to get emoticons in Word docs!!
DeleteCarol and Tracey, I am now looking forward to your recaps MORE than the actual show. I love all the chuckles, comparisons to other shows and movies, your spoiler alert from Big Bang Theory makes me chuckle every time. You have kept me watching what has become a ho hum tv show just so I can relate to your reviews. I love the books. I liked most of the first season. I love some of the tv characters but sure don't like the over all loss of the core Jamie Claire story. You keep on reviewing and I'll keep watching just so I can laugh with you.
DeleteI LOVE YOU GUYS!!! 😘
DeleteHello ladies!
ReplyDeleteI have to say I enjoyed this episode. Colum and Dougal were great, so were BJR and Alex. The contrast between the 2 sets of brothers' relationships was interesting. I didn't have an issue with what BJR did when Alex died. I don't think it was really that violent, and quite frankly it is something I would expect from him. He has no idea what to do with emotions and he was mad at Alex for leaving him. It made more sense to me than him sitting at the bedside crying would have.
I see comments about the change of Jaime not being there during the wedding/walking BJR back to his room. I think it would've been hella weird if that happened.
I'm going to throw in my opinion as a non-reader. Take it for what you will.....I honestly don't see what others do in regards to Jaime not being front and center. It is being told from Claire's point of view, so hers will be the main voice, but I don't feel the show is making Jaime some kind of background character. I mean I fell in love with the man! I'm not sure that could happen if the character wasn't being developed or given attention. As for the lack of love story - I again don't really see that. Everything that has happened has been connected to Jaime and Claire's love for each other. Jaime went through hell for Claire. Claire gave of herself for Jaime. They are trying to stop Culloden in order to save those they love and to have the life they want together. So, yeah that's a love story to me. Of course I would like to see more romantic/lovey scenes with them, but I think it all comes down to the amount of material vs. the time they have per season. Perhaps they focused on some things that readers feel would've been better spent on something else, but it's still good stuff to me. Maybe after reading the books I'll have a different opinion. At this point though, the show makes me happy and that's all I can ask for as a viewer. I wish it could be the same for book readers.
If you're really enjoying the show, you're probably better off waiting until the series is over to check out the books. It'll be like loving a really high end TV dinner and then having the real meal at a 3 star Michelin Restaurant and then going back. Trust, you'll taste that freezer burn.
DeleteThank goodness there is at least one person here who is enjoying the show through the objective viewpoint of a non-book reader! I swear, I'm starting to think a lot of book readers are comparing the show to the subjective fanfiction they have built up in their own minds rather than the actual books themselves. I've read the books myself and totally disagree with most of the complaints expressed here. In the books, Jamie is a secondary character with ZERO POV until Voyager. The first two books are Claire's story - Period. The show has, in fact, given Jamie more prevalence than the books did! Unless you want 50% of the screen time to be devoted to a mindless drumming of Claire voice over you are not going to get a fully realized true-to-life Jamie plus Claire's doting impression of him at the same time. Some of the things that are being complained about upstream are straight out of the pages of the books! Sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. I do sincerely hope that those who are chronically dissatisfied with the show cancel their subscriptions and go on to live happy lives. Then maybe we can discuss this show based on its own merit as opposed its comparison to a bunch of people's head cannon!
Deletehmmmm...Last12C, guess you aren't open to differing opinion but only want to discuss the show with those who totally agree with your view point.
DeleteI'm glad this blog has allowed all manner of views and comments. I happen to appreciate seeing the comments of those who agree with me and those who don't. Gives me a chance to view the show from a perspective different than my own.
Different strokes for different folks. Insulting people for their opinions of how the show should adapt the story is very unfriendly. I have found this blog so far to be a pretty friendly space open to everyone's opinion.
theresa b
Well, Teresa, I suppose it's just too bad if you don't like MY opinion. I guess you think that your opinion is more important than mine is. I don't have a problem with other people's OPINIONS. I have a very real problem when opinions are supported with false and misleading information.
DeleteWow, Last12C, you seem to be taking critiques of the show super personally. Lighten up, no one is trying to hurt your feelings:) You can express all of your satisfaction without getting nasty with others here. It's just a TV show. You can't control what other people like and don't like, but you can control if you're starting an interesting discussion or just spreading some funky juju. Be cool and bless you. Let us know how you like the books when you finally read them:)
DeleteNo, as I said, I have no difficulty with other people's opinions. Again, as I said, I have a problem with people assigning motives to the person of RDM that are false, attributing problems with the source material to the adaptation team and speaking disrespectfully of RDM and the writers. I consider THOSE things to be very unfriendly personal attacks. Once again, as I said, I AM a book reader. I have read the entire series, The Exile and every single novella multiple times beginning with the first printing of Outlander 20+ years ago. And I have participated on discussion forums devoted to this series for more than 10 years. I didn't get nasty with ANYONE. The points that I mentioned in my first post are not opinion - they are totally impersonal facts that are being accurately perceived by the non-book readers, but not by some of the book readers, with speculation as to why that was. Those who have responded to my posts are the ones taking things personally and dishing the snark. A lot of folks seem to want SAY they respect other people's opinions and then they take offense to people who disagree with them, as the poster above did, accusing me of insulting people simply because I disagreed with some of the complaints being made - which I did without pointing fingers. There appears to be a double standard operating here hiding under expansive claims of welcome and respect.
DeleteI'm glad you are enjoying the show for what it is. I am a long time book reader and think they have done a fabulous job!
DeleteJust started the marathon rewatch this weekend, and it is interesting to see the subtle moments between Jamie and Claire that I missed the first time through when I was watching for plot and comparing the show to the books (I try to put the book down, but it is impossible).
I don't think they are making Jamie less, if anything, they have given him too much. Jamie has his own POV way earlier than the books, so he doesn't have to be stuck to Claire to have a story. I think maybe that is what many book readers are upset about, in the book we only see Jamie when he is with Claire, but in the show he can do stuff on his own. This results in less time with the two of them together, which everyone seems to miss.
I recommend a whole series rewatch to everyone, to pay particular attention to all the small, quiet moments with Jamie and Claire together.
Great post, Gail! I totally agree! I thoroughly enjoyed the Marathon this weekend and appreciated every episode all the more. That sense of continuity really pulled everything together with wonderful results. Jamie and Claire's love is EPIC! Halfway through Season One I started watching the show on StarzPlay with CC almost exclusively because I realized how much detail I was missing watching on the TV - even with a large high def screen!
DeleteHey Last12C - actually, I don't see how you backed up your points in the first post at all. I see you saying that things complained about were straight out of the books, but no particulars. I see that you get huffy about perceived disrespect of RDM and the other writers. One thing you should know, you can look it up on the CompuServe Writers forum ~ DG said that the books are Jamie's story from Claire's POV. The show has clearly decided to make it Claire's story and emasculate Jamie. Even non-book reading show watchers notice. It's natural that people interested and curious enough to engage in places like this would look to assign motives for Jamie's emasculation, particularly when there is so much of it show after show. The show is better than most out there, but it could be even better if *someone* made some smarter decisions about how to use great actors and great source material. They seem to be overly concerned with making sure what they perceive to be a dense viewing audience "gets it" and using Tobias Menses as much as they possibly can and assigning anything clever or important to Claire. One more thing - yes, my opinion is more important than yours, Last12C. Pound away at those keys in indignation.
DeleteGuys -- Some of these comments bear the telltale earmarks of certain TROLLS who stalk the interwebs. They're up to no good. DO NOT engage them and they will lose interest and go away. You know who you are. Some of us came to MOP to get away from you. Please take pity and leave us alone!
DeleteCarol,
ReplyDeleteReading the books you didn't have to wonder that BJR would be at Culloden three days after the crushing blow of Alex's death because it didn't happen that way. The events around Alex's death take place in Edinburgh in the winter (which the show completely ignores, hence the time jump), not in Inverness in April.
I enjoy watching your videos. I enjoy watching the TV show and I enjoy reading the books. Most people appear to be comparing the book to the show. I on the other hand am comparing the show and the books to other TV shows and books available to watch and read. So I have no complaints and am grateful for such creative individuals and their ability to share that creativity with us.
ReplyDeleteI'm seeing so much discontent with season 2 and I'm wondering if all of the book readers were so excited during season one to see our beloved books finally come to the screen that some of the magic has worn off this season. Looking back to some of the first episodes, I have noticed that the production has certainly gotten more grand this season but maybe some of the essence of the books is a bit off. I, for one, don't think it's about the lack of sex but more about the beautiful, swoon worthy words that book Jamie has for Claire. The prayer that Jamie spoke over the sleeping Claires was beautiful and I think we've missed THAT Jamie.
ReplyDeleteI'm still loving it and appreciate the hard work that goes into each week's episode. Voyager is my 2nd favorite so I can't wait and hope the writers are listening to us and include the feelings as well as the action.
Thanks Carol and Tracy. You are the best and continue to make me laugh every week. You're honesty about what you like and don't like are never snarky - just hilarious.
Totally agree!^ I am so happy to see DG's beloved books come to life on on the screen - of course the adaptation is different. In fact, the minor differences give we who already know the end from the beginning, some little surprises. I would be soooo disappointed if the complainers caused any kind of slump in viewership, and it was cancelled. Yikes! Can't even!
DeleteTHANK YOU B!!! 😘 I have never been good at snark (although sometimes it does make me giggle.) We just chit chat about what we see. And interestingly, sometimes I change my mind after we make a video. I'll see an episode, say how I felt, and then watch again or think about it in a different light after someone points something out, and totally have a change of heart. It's a girl's prerogative to change her mind, right? ;)
DeletePS - I cannot believe this but I've been spelling - and hearing - prerogative incorrectly my entire life until this comment. LOL!!
On the two death scenes: both sets of brothers had a strange and difficult upbringing, far from similar. I liked how their stories were intertwined throughout the episode. Dougal's reaction, a more normal one at the loss of one's big brother, versus BJR's, who is unable to process or understand his emotional state. The show just keeps getting better and better in every respect. The costumes, the setting, the writing, it's all so very good. I've read all the books, and am rereading DIA now. One comment for the viewers who are dissatisfied with Claire/Jamie's portrayals: I suspect you may not be fans of historical fiction, and would be happier with a romantic Lifetime-style movie. Ron Moore, if you're reading this, job well done!
ReplyDeleteHi, love your video chats! So funny but also interesting and make me think again on things. I didn't see if anyone commented on BJR history and why he's like that. It's kind of a SPOILER TO BOOK 8. They don't give to much details but they show him when he just arrived to Scotland and he was very kind to Brian Fraser and tried to help him. It's implied that something happened and the behaviour of the barbarian Scots made him disillusioned.- Adi from Israel
ReplyDeleteWHOA Adi, thanks for commenting. I have to go research this! Funny how you forget things after reading the books so long ago! :)
Delete
ReplyDeleteCarol and Traceeeeeey,
I’ve tried hard to work up a positive attitude before I posted my comments, but it’s just not coming. This episode left me depressed. It’s not a bad episode in and of itself – there are some excellent scenes and performances – but it sits so heavy on our timeline. The battle is supposed to be “tomorrow,” so no last night together for Claire and Jamie because there’s no time (grrrr!). There’s barely time to accomplish the other things we know should happen along with the rush to the stones. A lot of 1968 stuff will need to be thrown in, and we’ll need time to meet new characters. Oh, I expect they will throw us a meaty scene of separation in the finale, to get us to cry and to try to make us forget how much was lost and wasted in this very unbalanced season. Do I sound bitter?
As a book reader, I can see that hindsight and foresight are both a bitch. There are so many precious jewels of dialog, scenes, characters, and relationship moments in the books, but this season has rested too heavily on the strings of a plot line that should have been strong enough to hold more of those jewels and balance out this story. Since we already know (from the very beginning of the season) that the plan to stop Culloden fails, so much time and focus should not have been spent on the mechanics of trying to stop that lost cause. We needed more character moments, more relationship moments, more scenes of highlander family life and all that stands to be lost. We should have also been seeing the story of how, despite trials, heartbreak, failures, war, separation, and time, two extraordinary people can build a love that strengthens and endures. That’s the story that keeps me reading the books. I may pick up interesting facts along the way, but I am there for Claire and Jamie. History lessons are only a bonus.
In the finale, I think we’ll see Dougal’s death - hopefully without blackening Claire’s character any more. She was reluctant in the book, and she was relieved when Jamie didn’t agree with her suggestion. I'm very worried about Murtaugh, but I hope we see Jamie dispatch him to send the Lallybroch men home. I hope we see a beautiful parting scene between Fergus and his “parents.” Mostly, I want Claire and Jamie to have, in both dialog and action, the shamelessly beautiful and heart-wrenching parting they deserve. I want this season to at least end doing right by the source material, its writer, and its fans.
I read that there are four new writers for Outlander, and that three are women. Ira Behr has left, so counting RDM, there are now three men and five women writers. All the new writers are were unfamiliar with the books, but they are reading them. I wish they would read some fan comments as well.
Dolittle
I meant to ask in my previous comment, did I see wee Fergus pretend to be sleeping with this head on the table, eyes open, listening to Jamie and Claire as they talked about being unable to change history?
ReplyDeleteOOOOH great catch!!! I have to go back and watch that!!
DeleteI want to make a comment or two before the Finale. I thought Episode 212 was interesting to watch. I really enjoyed the death scene with Dougal...he was wonderful, and was totally repulsed by BJR's beating on his brother. It seemed ridiculous to me, OVERkill for sure. Shocking.
ReplyDeleteSome people say the love scene whiners are complaining too much, but I do hope for some farewell sex in the Finale: I could swear I heard Jamie say "I need ye, Claire" in one of the preview videos, once, but can't find it. Just a little quickie, please.
Otherwise, I am sure they will throw everything at us in the Finale. It will be exciting and oh so sad. I hope we hear some our favorite speeches from Jamie. Sam is doing a wonderfuljob as Jamie, and when I binge-watched the season, when I could, I could see the development of his healing and bravery. I don't see Jamie in a corner at all. I do NOT see enough Jamie and Claire, but I've mentioned that already.
I am SO looking forward to your Finale video. Carol, are you going to discuss The Bees in your Diana voice?
OMG Susan - bees in DG voice - that is a riot. I will do it JUST FOR YOU, sister!! 😘
Delete