I love you guys but you gotta get over this speaking English thing. They must know what they're doing and realize most people don't want to read subtitles. You and I don't mind it but the average viewer isn't feeling it. Just let it go as Elsa would say. Love this episode even though the whole jail thing was totally different than the books. I was down with it.
My problem is Sophie’s diction trying to have an American accent. She’s Irish, for heaven’s sake. Let her rip with her native accent! Her “American” accent would stick out like a sore thumb in the past. Her character Brianna could be trying to pretend she has a Scottish accent. The producers should have thought of this. Would not be so distracting and her performance would be a lot better. She really needs to be fierce.
She's english. And I think if she had a bit of a lilt it would still be ok as she had British parents! My mum was scottish and I had phrases and pronunciations that were odd to others (like I say "ont" instead of "ant" for Aunt (!)
Yeah, this doesn't really bother me either. I'm sure they figure if the Indigenous characters speak "broken" english it would be clunky and possibly even offensive, If one guy can speak english to do translation now and again it really doesn't bother me -and it's not something I notice.
What I do notice is the fact that he can speak english and he hasn't bothered to tell Roger anything about where he is or what the rules are or what the consequences of breaking the rules are! That's annoying to me! Dee
Love you ladies, but I found some of the stuff you were saying about the language thing closely bordering on racist. As anyone who has ever taken a foreign language class knows, some people learn languages faster and accents better than others. You have to remember that the Mohawk have been in contact with westerners since the 16th century. By this time they are traveling extensively(they're in N.C. when they take Roger) and would have been interacting with Westerners speaking foreign languages for over a hundred years. Many Native Americans would have made a point of learning foreign languages to act as communicators/translators on behalf of their tribes. Assuming that all Native Americans would speak English with an accent is prejudiced. For all we know, Kaheroton speaks five languages and has been speaking English since childhood. Oh, and Kaheroton is the Mohawk with "the big bird head!" Come on Carol, you're better than this. Can you just say headdress instead? And please don't do that gobble-gobble sounding thing to imitate a language that is foreign to you. THAT is really NOT GOOD. I recently met a relative for the first time who turned out to be extremely racist, and he did this same thing to imitate how Chinese people spoke, and I was soooo mortified to be related to this person.
Felt similarly. Thank you for writing this. Agree that Carol and Tracey can do better and that the issue caused them to miss some important plot features.
What a snow-flake you are! (not to get political) The perfect English is ridiculous, not racist. I am so sick of everything being called racist. His perfect speech takes me out of the scene every time. Great job girls. You make me laugh outloud. Thank you so much for all your time and effort.
Alrighty, wading in...to address Unknown first: of course the issue caused us to miss some important plot features. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE RANT. I've said on numerous occasions that the language issue--hearing perfect, unaccented, 21st century English being spoken by the Mohawk takes me out of the story. It irks me because a) I don't find it realistic and b) it would be so easy to get around the issue with subtitles, gestures, context, etc. So yes, as a result, I do miss things. That's on me--others don't need to share that opinion, but it's mine and it's how I feel.
Now, Anonymous Number Two: Thank you for the support and for understanding how I feel--it's REALLY appreciated. But the use of the word "Snowflake" is not something we like to see here--we try to keep things about the show and our opinions, and don't want to see name calling. Please edit your comment to remove, or I'll have to take it down. Thanks so much.
And finally, Anonymous Number One--again, thanks so much for approaching your comments in a positive way. this is PART ONE:
YOU SAID "As anyone who has ever taken a foreign language class knows, some people learn languages faster and accents better than others."
I agree 100%--but IMO, you do the two (learn languages and accents) for different purposes. You learn languages so that you can communicate with someone who doesn't speak your primary language. You learn accents so you can ASSIMILATE in another culture and "sound" more like it.
I've done both of these things for entirely different reasons. I learned the Spanish language in high school because it was a required course. I've also earned words in other languages because I was traveling in those areas and wanted to be able to be understood there. As I was doing so, I really didn't think about how my accent in those languages would sound to native speakers--I just wanted to get the words out and hopefully get someone to understand that I needed to find the bathroom. :-)
I've also learned a number of accents for performance reasons--I've played roles for which I needed, at various times, a British, Irish, Yiddish, southern, and Texas accent, among others. In all those cases, I wasn't at all concerned with comprehending vocabulary (other than a few language words that I had to learn phonetically)--it was all about believable-sounding English as spoken by a British, Irish, Yiddish, southern, etc. person. (I have a point here, really...we'll get to it!)
YOU SAID: "You have to remember that the Mohawk have been in contact with westerners since the 16th century. By this time they are traveling extensively(they're in N.C. when they take Roger) and would have been interacting with Westerners speaking foreign languages for over a hundred years. Many Native Americans would have made a point of learning foreign languages to act as communicators/translators on behalf of their tribes. Assuming that all Native Americans would speak English with an accent is prejudiced."
And here's where we get the to the crux of the problem: I happen to disagree that assuming that Native Americans would speak English with an accent is prejudiced. It's completely believable that there are Mohawk fluent in English--or French, or any number of other languages. And ok, sure--maybe there is a random Mohawk somewhere who speaks five languages, each with not a trace of an accent (which, btw, would be an INCREDIBLE feat--not going to get into the work you have to do linguistically to "get" an accent--I'm sure you are aware of it--how sounds are produced differently and in different areas of the mouth to speak different languages, blah blah blah)--but if there is, you know what? It's just not believable to me that he or she would be leading the charge on capturing/torturing Roger and not at least providing SOME explanation to him of what's happening or why Roger is being treated the way he is.
A far more realistic expectation, IMO, would be that a couple of the Mohawk know some English words/phrases--maybe enough to have a basic conversation about trade or the tribe or whatever, and that those words would be accented. So Roger might be able to glean the gist of things here or there. But the perfectly spoken, unaccented conversation in English between Roger and the Mohawk who was escorting him back to the hut? No. Just no. I don't buy it. Otherwise, if Roger knew he would be completely understood by the guy, why didn't he just come out and ask, "Why are you treating me this way?"
And after all that...if we go back to the origin of all this, the source material (I'm avoiding the "b" word so I don't have to drink, as it's not even noon), it's made pretty clear that the Mohawk have little, if any English: "The Indians made no great effort to communicate with him, but by careful listening he acquired a little of the language." (page 729 of the big paperback). "He hadn't enough Mohawk to ask questions, and didn't think they would be answered in any case." (page 731). This one refers to the Tuscarora--it's a scene from J/C/I's trip trying to find Roger--while it's not the Mohawk, you might be able to extrapolate: "I wanted to ask the women who entertained me about Roger, but no one in the house had any French or English, and I had only enough words of Tuscaroran to allow for basic politeness. Better to let Ian and Jamie handle the diplomatic negotiations. Jamie, with his gift for languages, was competent in Tuscaroran; Ian, who spent half his time hunting with the Indians, was thoroughly fluent." (page 719)
So that's it. IMO the Mohawk speak English so well not because it's something from the source material OR because it was actually something realistic that you'd find in any random tribe, but because the writers felt that it had to be so in order for the audience to understand what was happening. Which I don't buy. And which is not a prejudiced opinion.
Anonymous Number Two here. (Didn't realize I'd posted anonymously when I hit submit.) Thanks Tracey, for your thoughtful replies. I still disagree about the language thing, but get your view. For myself, living in a fairly multi-lingual communuty, I've known multiple people who have a knack for accents and don't need to try hard at all to "get" an accent. Even before they're truly conversational in a language. So it's perfectly believable to me that this guy could do this. Just saying, it might seen unbelievable to you, but not to everyone. I think it's important, unless we are experts in Mohawk culture, Tuscaroran language, or the history of the period to not judge the show so harshly on accuracy when it's clear the show did a bit more research in making the show than we did in watching it. Maybe the show got it wrong, but maybe they didn't.
The priest reminds me of Viggo Mortensen. I was totally getting "Westside Story" vibes as the regulators gathered at the jail. As for next weeks episode, I think we'll see a "who shot JR" cliffhanger which will conclude sometime next season. Just like season 1 when Claire got caught by the redcoats!!! I enjoy the recap ladies! Please keep it up.
I thought the priest looked like Michael Fassbender and at times like Matt Smith. I really loved Roger's acting in this episode and his monologue. He did indeed own the episode. I thought the ending was really tragic and poignant. The whole episode was pretty riveting and full of action.
You guys really cracked me up about the construction of the hut -- very true!
Did anyone else notice that Bree's dress was a similar pattern and color to the bedspread and curtains in Fergus' bedroom? Maybe the set designers snitched some material from costume design lol.
I loved the changes made to the plot lines in this episode. To have Fergus and The Regulators rescue Murtagh, who was next door to Stephen Bonnet’s cell (!) where Bree/Bonnet talk went down pretty much faithful to the book even though it still doesn’t make sense (her forgiving him at all) but Bree had to find a gemstone somewhere, of course, as Bonnet had stolen them from Jamie and Claire. So there you have it. Full circle. And I loved it that they avoided a lot of that scene in the book where Lord John is hit over the head and Bonnet and Bree go through the whole explosion at the jail where he saves her in the basement etc. Much tidier and so much fun to spring Murtagh that way. Now the Regulators scenes get much more interesting. I love the actor from Downton Abbey who plays Bonnet (can’t remember his name just now) .. he’s excellent as the Bad Boy. The returning of the gemstone sort of redeems him yet he thought he was being hangit the next day so not so much of a sacrifice. Liked the Odyssey of Roger. He had to go back because he has to be (spoiler!) rescued by Jamie and Claire! But again... Roger!! Just GO!! Get the hell out of there! They are going to enslave you until you die because you don’t understand Mohawk yet! Loved his line when the Priest (not Neil Patrick Harris moment for me but Skarsgaard I can see ... except didn’t he have a very slight Scottish accent at one point? He was French, right? In the book? Did anyone hear that too?) says “How did you get here?” and Roger says “ I guess you could say I walked here”. Great line. Did notice the dearth of Jamie and Claire scenes but loved the one they included. Need my Jamie fix. Next week there will be plenty. They have so much to cover!
I would like to have seen the Mohawk portrayed more like they did in the movie "Last of the Mohicans". Talk about dangerous and terrifying! Over all a great episode, well adapted from the book.
I could have spent the whole hour in the Roger story.The beat Roger yet. Talk about language and accents I couldn't understand a word John and Bree said the first time I watched it. She would be better off speaking naturally. When most Brits try to talk American they talk with mouth closed and lisp. I had to rewind and play again a couple of times.
The snene where Roger is being beaten by the row of Native Americans is a ritual where if he could last to the end he could go free. The one Mohawk said, “You will remain a captive.” Roger didn’t quite make it. All about courage and being honorable.
With all due respect I do not understand why some feel the need to criticize Tracy and Carol. They give up time they really don't have to chat with us about our favorite story, and I for one, appreciate it so much. They have given me smiles during a pretty rough year, and I hope they are crazy enough to stick it out for the duration. Thank you both for all you do.��
I like you, Tracey, thought the Easter egg was for that certain event that did not happen. But when I watched the 2nd time, it was duh! That's the whisky Roger threw on the fire.
I really liked this episode. It was one of my favorites of the season. I loved that Roger told the whole story of Bree. Richard has always made me see and feel his love for her - it has been in his eyes since the very 1st time they met. It was a tour-de-fore for Richard and way past time he got scenes like this.
Now I need the same next week for young Ian (my favorite character.) He hasn't had anything since he told Geillis he was "tired of yer blatherin!" He needs his moment to shine! I hope and need the writers to get this right!
Love, love, love LJ; he is indeed IMPOSSIBLE not to like,
Finally, I do love Fergus and Marsali. But, young Fergus was full of fire and afraid of nothing! Older Fergus shows more of his sweet side, and while I do love that, I would like to see more of the spunk he once had. I was glad he became the leader of the 'gang'. Maybe when they get to the ridge and back to milord he will come more into his own like he was as a child.
Hello Tracey and Carol. I appreciated your video this week, especially considering how tired you both were. Your "bad to the bone" lyrics about Bonnet smelling like a toilet cracked me up completely. I watched the episode twice and felt like most of the dialogue not taken from the book was short and a bit clunky. BUT I was truly affected by the last 5 minutes. The music playing over the silent voices in the final scene (Addagio for Strings) took my breath away; the "face acting" by the Healer and her Brother and Roger was so moving, I cried both times at the exact same point in the episode. Came away feeling like it was a good episode overall.
Love you Carol but didn't Lord John come on to a prisoner that he was in charge of?(jamie) Is that honorable? I too thought the pantry scene was weird but not because it wasn't honorable, two consenting single adults can have sex in the middle of the night with no one around, that doesn't make them not honorable. Careless maybe, stupid maybe, but it might have been a while for LJ and he probably doesn't have a lot of opportunities so he couldn't pass it up and in the book he does it with a slave is that honorable?
It wasn't that he was not honorable, it was where he chose to do it. Very disrespectful to his hostess. And also, dangerous for him if he had gotten caught.
EXCELLENT point and one I've not yet seen made. Well done, MTown. This is a really interesting piece of "food for thought." (Given we're talking about the pantry, I figured a food-based idiom would work well here....)
Yes, those lips were driving me crazy, they were all I could look at when the camera was on her. Glad I'm not the only one who was so distracted. She was an excellent actress though.
Hi Ladies! Love your Sunday night reviews. About the Easter Egg intro- my understanding is the Mohawk are drinking the casks of whiskey in camp. These casks are the ones Roger throws to ignite the flames to make them consume Father Alexandre and his love at the end. It was so heartwrenching. Also the so called idiot hut was strong. Roger try to shake the structure but it did not budge.
The Mohawk traveled, trading with other tribes and apparently white settlers also, since they traded for Roger. For me, that explains the perfect English and different languages, whether they purposely learned English to help them in trading or it just happened from exposure to different languages. Also, at one point Young Ian says that the Mohawk take prisoners into their tribe (which they were willing to do with the priest) which would also explain different languages, accents. Just discovered your videos! Loving them!
Enjoy your vids. The scene at the beginning was Roger "running the gauntlet" (google will give more info) which my husband pointed out Roger should have known about being a historian by profession of some years. I gave Roger the benefit of the doubt as he would have been exhausted and disoriented by this time. Regarding the hut - my thoughts entirely! Thought it was a shame that they chose to change this scene from book version as the original could have been much more visually and emotionally powerful if done well. Time constraints I guess but I also wonder if the budget has suffered. I just dont get the same atmosphere with S4. Acting though remains brilliant from all. Still irks that Sam hasn't picked up an award - industry snobbery maybe?
Whoops last post not specific - the scene I refer to as being a shame to have changed was the finale burning of the priest and the Mohawk woman. On reflection though it might have played a bit like a rehash of the scene in Jamaica with the crocodile guy and fire and lots of natives slightly out of control before the geillis decapitation. Not sure if that would be good or bad?
Hi to you two and hope you have a good week ahead. Here we are again with a very long drought ahead of us. Im a little anxious to see how they are going to wrap this all up in one last episode. They should have done a 16 episode season. Its going to be hard to sit through a possible cliff hanger and wait till April of 2020 for season 5. Looking forward to your next recap.
Tracey. What is interesting about the Easter eggs for book readers, is that we can usually figure out their purpose right away. I, like you, assumed they were going "there" with the way it played out originally in the book. So when they began that last scene, and there was no alcohol involved, I was scratching my head until he ran back to the camp...that is when the aha moment happened for me.
Carol. In the book, Roger thinks that Bree has set Jamie on him. He doesn’t find out until he is rescued, that Bree didn’t know anything about him being beaten and sold.
You are very spot on about the lack of relationship development on Bree & Roger in the show. It is downright annoying that they expect us to swoon over their “love story” when they have not show it to us.
Now for the elephant in the room...the usage of English/French/Mohawk. Back in season 1, whenever they spoke Gaelic around Claire, there was no use of subtitles. When asked why not, RDM said that they wanted the viewing audience to feel Claire's isolation, which was highly effective. So isn't the scenario the same for Roger? Isn't he an outlander? I wish they had stayed with that because I believe it would have made the Mohawk appear more fierce because none of us, especially Roger, would have any idea of his fate.
As for accents, when I speak Spanish, I can guarantee I'm speaking it with an American accent because American English is my native tongue. Why is it considered racist to assume that the Mohawk wouldn't have a different syntax to his English? When the Amish speak English, you can hear a different syntax, even though they were all born in the U.S. Heck...I'm from LI, you can hear the difference in MY accent. It is not racist, it is just cultural and regional.
The only real thing wrong with this episode was the lack of the lead characters. I know it was important to tell Roger's story, but it has been a bit unbalanced this season. I'm concerned how they are going to get the rest of the story in a 58 minute finale. Eek.
I, for one, am happy you are considering doing occasional videos during what will likely be the longest droughtlander yet. We are pretty far off from fall 2020. Thanks for thinking of us. Marian4456
I like these long, detailed videos. Carol, you said that Marsali had all these emotions showing on her face, yet Sophie I think does not. Her face is very bland and her voice does not show excitement or or raw emotion, whatever the accent. I thought she was cute last year when she was younger, but I find her very uninteresting this season, or rather the actress who plays her. When I saw that prison/tent and being able to see through the leaves, I laughed. It looks like those fake fences you can buy that are a screen of fake greenery to cover your back yard fence so passersby can't see you. If Roger had a knife he could snip his way out! I did miss Jamie and Claire. Just one scene, searching for Roger, would have been nice. Ladies, are you forgetting the big love scene in the stable between Bree and Roger? I think that was supposed to show us their hot love for each other. We have a LOT to get through next week: I hope they spread out the activity and don't dwell on one long scene, and I hope they cover lots of story line. But the one scene I want is The Baby. It's one of my favorites from the book. PLEASE!
Love you guys. I talk to you just like I am there. And I laugh with you too. Boy do we share the same ideas about the episodes! I so agree that the relationship between Bree and Rodger was not developed enough. But also agree that they approach love differently. Bree is confused because of what she thought was the relationship between Claire and Frank. Rodger is in love and able to be more vulnerable than Brianna. Learned from you comment that Fergus needs a person who looks after him. He isn’t like book Fergus. Rodger says he thinks it was Bree’s father who beat him up. Wish he had said what reason he thinks for this. I read that they filmed Rodger at the stones being taken by Mohawks before he could touch stones. Since we didn’t see Mohawks I think we are to believe Rodger decided to stay. Then maybe he won’t go off after rescued. He already made up his mind. Sometimes I wish they would do more voice overs so we know characters thoughts. The voice over of Jamie’s letter to Bree didn’t say it was signed Da, but if you look closely IT WAS! Again, I really look forward to our weekly conversations. I hope next weeks is happy that we got a good ending. You guys are the best ! Thank You!
Okay now this is funny, but Carol, when I was looking at your hair I thought how great it would look in a blunt shorter cut, then one second later you said, should I do the blunt cut, guys? I was like what?? Yes! Do it, it would look great!
I agree about the Roger and Bree relationship. (Tracy - I'm going to have to take a BIG drink for this....)
In the book it was way more developed (being in Roger's POV helped no doubt) but you could see the love and affection they had for each other, and how it grew and changed. Rogers proposal was way more romantic and thought out (not just fumbling after a make-out session and NO visible growth in their relationship) , and even though Bree said no to the engagement, she said she loved him and explained her feelings about marriage and love, and said she wanted to wait AND HE AGREED! so they were still "together" ish. (as they could be long distance) There was none of this false drama crap about them breaking up, so WE KNEW they cared for each other, and were in pause mode until Bree finished school at least. When Bree cancelled a trip to come see him, he started to question if maybe things where changing, but when she sent all her "history" & the letter to him he knew what had happened, and WHY she didn't tell him. (she still loved him)
When they finally reunite, and they had their post "honeymoon" fight, he said he would come find her. so even if we knew they were mad, we knew he still cared about her (and SHE DID TOO), because there was less stupid drama crap! And HE was still pretty sure she still cared for him, even when he was with the Mohawk (though he was a little unsure about why Jamie beat up his face!)
The show has screwed up their relationship BIG TIME, and it's hella annoying - it's also annoying that they don't seem TO SEE IT! Bree and LJ have more chemistry, and Marsali and Fergus blow them out of the water, and we hardly see any of Claire and Jamie, so we got NOTHIN!
Q: when does young Ian find out about Claire coming from the future? He made a remark this season, like, ‘nothing surprises me about Auntie Claire’. And I can’t remember a scene in the books.
Hey there, fellow Outlanders! I was out of town Sunday, and my husband and I pledged to wait until my return to watch Episode 12 together - romantic, huh? I was in Tucson visiting family, and my cousin had never seen nor heard of Outlander. (Sometimes I wonder where these folks have been -hah!). Anyway, Sunday evening, while the episode was airing, we used her Direct TV On Demand function to watch Season 1, Episode 1. She was blown away, and said that as soon as we left on Wednesday, she would be bingeing the entire 4 seasons. Hubs and I didn’t watch till last night, but on the plane I pulled up DOA on my Kindle and read the last few chapters. Loved everything that was straight from the book, especially Jamie’s letter, and much of Lord John and Brianna’s conversations. Also very pleased with how they tied Murtagh’s escape in with the whole escape and blowing up of the prison. Brilliant!
It was a tad confusing at the Mohawk camp though, without Jamie, Claire, and Ian’s involvement with negotiations to free Roger. I know they will be there next week, but they were definitely present when the priest was killed. I could swear that Healer Lady handed the baby to Claire before she walked into the fire. They hadn’t actually seen Roger, but knew he was there. I hope i’m not jet-lagged and remembering it wrong.
Carol, I know what you mean about not getting a frightening vibe from the Mohawks. The Tuscarora were very scary to Ridge Folk, I believe, because “Savages” were painted with one brush stroke in their minds. In reality though, the Mohawks were the more dangerous, even to other tribes (I think). It’s a vibe that’s just not there though. Steven Bonnet has that vibe, even more so than BJR, simply because he’s so uncivilized and unpredictable (like the Mohawks).
One thing I did notice in the book was how DG only referred to the Native Americans as “Indians”. Their English speech was almost stereotypical - “You white man, me red man” -that kind of thing. So perhaps the writers were being more PC. Although it really doesn’t bother me, or seem odd that they speak English as much as it does you, Tracey.
All in all, we loved Episode 12, but then I rarely have much negative to say. But I love hearing you guys go off on it! Hah! Can’t wait till Finale, and to hear your take on it.
I love you guys but you gotta get over this speaking English thing. They must know what they're doing and realize most people don't want to read subtitles. You and I don't mind it but the average viewer isn't feeling it. Just let it go as Elsa would say. Love this episode even though the whole jail thing was totally different than the books. I was down with it.
ReplyDeleteMy problem is Sophie’s diction trying to have an American accent. She’s Irish, for heaven’s sake. Let her rip with her native accent! Her “American” accent would stick out like a sore thumb in the past. Her character Brianna could be trying to pretend she has a Scottish accent. The producers should have thought of this. Would not be so distracting and her performance would be a lot better. She really needs to be fierce.
DeleteShe's english. And I think if she had a bit of a lilt it would still be ok as she had British parents!
DeleteMy mum was scottish and I had phrases and pronunciations that were odd to others (like I say "ont" instead of "ant" for Aunt (!)
Yeah, this doesn't really bother me either. I'm sure they figure if the Indigenous characters speak "broken" english it would be clunky and possibly even offensive, If one guy can speak english to do translation now and again it really doesn't bother me -and it's not something I notice.
DeleteWhat I do notice is the fact that he can speak english and he hasn't bothered to tell Roger anything about where he is or what the rules are or what the consequences of breaking the rules are! That's annoying to me!
Dee
The Easter egg. Roger threw one of the barrels on the fire!
ReplyDeleteI think you’re right! 👍🏻
DeleteLove you ladies, but I found some of the stuff you were saying about the language thing closely bordering on racist. As anyone who has ever taken a foreign language class knows, some people learn languages faster and accents better than others. You have to remember that the Mohawk have been in contact with westerners since the 16th century. By this time they are traveling extensively(they're in N.C. when they take Roger) and would have been interacting with Westerners speaking foreign languages for over a hundred years. Many Native Americans would have made a point of learning foreign languages to act as communicators/translators on behalf of their tribes. Assuming that all Native Americans would speak English with an accent is prejudiced. For all we know, Kaheroton speaks five languages and has been speaking English since childhood. Oh, and Kaheroton is the Mohawk with "the big bird head!" Come on Carol, you're better than this. Can you just say headdress instead? And please don't do that gobble-gobble sounding thing to imitate a language that is foreign to you. THAT is really NOT GOOD. I recently met a relative for the first time who turned out to be extremely racist, and he did this same thing to imitate how Chinese people spoke, and I was soooo mortified to be related to this person.
ReplyDeleteFelt similarly. Thank you for writing this. Agree that Carol and Tracey can do better and that the issue caused them to miss some important plot features.
DeleteWhat a snow-flake you are! (not to get political) The perfect English is ridiculous, not racist. I am so sick of everything being called racist. His perfect speech takes me out of the scene every time. Great job girls. You make me laugh outloud. Thank you so much for all your time and effort.
DeleteAlrighty, wading in...to address Unknown first: of course the issue caused us to miss some important plot features. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE RANT. I've said on numerous occasions that the language issue--hearing perfect, unaccented, 21st century English being spoken by the Mohawk takes me out of the story. It irks me because a) I don't find it realistic and b) it would be so easy to get around the issue with subtitles, gestures, context, etc. So yes, as a result, I do miss things. That's on me--others don't need to share that opinion, but it's mine and it's how I feel.
DeleteNow, Anonymous Number Two: Thank you for the support and for understanding how I feel--it's REALLY appreciated. But the use of the word "Snowflake" is not something we like to see here--we try to keep things about the show and our opinions, and don't want to see name calling. Please edit your comment to remove, or I'll have to take it down. Thanks so much.
DeleteAnd finally, Anonymous Number One--again, thanks so much for approaching your comments in a positive way.
Deletethis is PART ONE:
YOU SAID "As anyone who has ever taken a foreign language class knows, some people learn languages faster and accents better than others."
I agree 100%--but IMO, you do the two (learn languages and accents) for different purposes. You learn languages so that you can communicate with someone who doesn't speak your primary language. You learn accents so you can ASSIMILATE in another culture and "sound" more like it.
I've done both of these things for entirely different reasons. I learned the Spanish language in high school because it was a required course. I've also earned words in other languages because I was traveling in those areas and wanted to be able to be understood there. As I was doing so, I really didn't think about how my accent in those languages would sound to native speakers--I just wanted to get the words out and hopefully get someone to understand that I needed to find the bathroom. :-)
I've also learned a number of accents for performance reasons--I've played roles for which I needed, at various times, a British, Irish, Yiddish, southern, and Texas accent, among others. In all those cases, I wasn't at all concerned with comprehending vocabulary (other than a few language words that I had to learn phonetically)--it was all about believable-sounding English as spoken by a British, Irish, Yiddish, southern, etc. person. (I have a point here, really...we'll get to it!)
YOU SAID: "You have to remember that the Mohawk have been in contact with westerners since the 16th century. By this time they are traveling extensively(they're in N.C. when they take Roger) and would have been interacting with Westerners speaking foreign languages for over a hundred years. Many Native Americans would have made a point of learning foreign languages to act as communicators/translators on behalf of their tribes. Assuming that all Native Americans would speak English with an accent is prejudiced."
And here's where we get the to the crux of the problem: I happen to disagree that assuming that Native Americans would speak English with an accent is prejudiced. It's completely believable that there are Mohawk fluent in English--or French, or any number of other languages. And ok, sure--maybe there is a random Mohawk somewhere who speaks five languages, each with not a trace of an accent (which, btw, would be an INCREDIBLE feat--not going to get into the work you have to do linguistically to "get" an accent--I'm sure you are aware of it--how sounds are produced differently and in different areas of the mouth to speak different languages, blah blah blah)--but if there is, you know what? It's just not believable to me that he or she would be leading the charge on capturing/torturing Roger and not at least providing SOME explanation to him of what's happening or why Roger is being treated the way he is.
A far more realistic expectation, IMO, would be that a couple of the Mohawk know some English words/phrases--maybe enough to have a basic conversation about trade or the tribe or whatever, and that those words would be accented. So Roger might be able to glean the gist of things here or there. But the perfectly spoken, unaccented conversation in English between Roger and the Mohawk who was escorting him back to the hut? No. Just no. I don't buy it. Otherwise, if Roger knew he would be completely understood by the guy, why didn't he just come out and ask, "Why are you treating me this way?"
Part TWO to come...
This is response to Anonymous One, PART TWO
DeleteAnd after all that...if we go back to the origin of all this, the source material (I'm avoiding the "b" word so I don't have to drink, as it's not even noon), it's made pretty clear that the Mohawk have little, if any English: "The Indians made no great effort to communicate with him, but by careful listening he acquired a little of the language." (page 729 of the big paperback). "He hadn't enough Mohawk to ask questions, and didn't think they would be answered in any case." (page 731). This one refers to the Tuscarora--it's a scene from J/C/I's trip trying to find Roger--while it's not the Mohawk, you might be able to extrapolate: "I wanted to ask the women who entertained me about Roger, but no one in the house had any French or English, and I had only enough words of Tuscaroran to allow for basic politeness. Better to let Ian and Jamie handle the diplomatic negotiations. Jamie, with his gift for languages, was competent in Tuscaroran; Ian, who spent half his time hunting with the Indians, was thoroughly fluent." (page 719)
So that's it. IMO the Mohawk speak English so well not because it's something from the source material OR because it was actually something realistic that you'd find in any random tribe, but because the writers felt that it had to be so in order for the audience to understand what was happening. Which I don't buy. And which is not a prejudiced opinion.
Again, thanks for commenting and for listening!
--Tracey
Anonymous Number Two here. (Didn't realize I'd posted anonymously when I hit submit.) Thanks Tracey, for your thoughtful replies. I still disagree about the language thing, but get your view. For myself, living in a fairly multi-lingual communuty, I've known multiple people who have a knack for accents and don't need to try hard at all to "get" an accent. Even before they're truly conversational in a language. So it's perfectly believable to me that this guy could do this. Just saying, it might seen unbelievable to you, but not to everyone. I think it's important, unless we are experts in Mohawk culture, Tuscaroran language, or the history of the period to not judge the show so harshly on accuracy when it's clear the show did a bit more research in making the show than we did in watching it. Maybe the show got it wrong, but maybe they didn't.
DeleteThe priest reminds me of Viggo Mortensen. I was totally getting "Westside Story" vibes as the regulators gathered at the jail. As for next weeks episode, I think we'll see a "who shot JR" cliffhanger which will conclude sometime next season. Just like season 1 when Claire got caught by the redcoats!!! I enjoy the recap ladies! Please keep it up.
ReplyDeleteI thought the priest looked like Michael Fassbender and at times like Matt Smith. I really loved Roger's acting in this episode and his monologue. He did indeed own the episode. I thought the ending was really tragic and poignant. The whole episode was pretty riveting and full of action.
ReplyDeleteYou guys really cracked me up about the construction of the hut -- very true!
Did anyone else notice that Bree's dress was a similar pattern and color to the bedspread and curtains in Fergus' bedroom? Maybe the set designers snitched some material from costume design lol.
I loved the changes made to the plot lines in this episode. To have Fergus and The Regulators rescue Murtagh, who was next door to Stephen Bonnet’s cell (!) where Bree/Bonnet talk went down pretty much faithful to the book even though it still doesn’t make sense (her forgiving him at all) but Bree had to find a gemstone somewhere, of course, as Bonnet had stolen them from Jamie and Claire. So there you have it. Full circle.
ReplyDeleteAnd I loved it that they avoided a lot of that scene in the book where Lord John is hit over the head and Bonnet and Bree go through the whole explosion at the jail where he saves her in the basement etc. Much tidier and so much fun to spring Murtagh that way. Now the Regulators scenes get much more interesting.
I love the actor from Downton Abbey who plays Bonnet (can’t remember his name just now) .. he’s excellent as the Bad Boy. The returning of the gemstone sort of redeems him yet he thought he was being hangit the next day so not so much of a sacrifice.
Liked the Odyssey of Roger. He had to go back because he has to be (spoiler!) rescued by Jamie and Claire! But again... Roger!! Just GO!! Get the hell out of there! They are going to enslave you until you die because you don’t understand Mohawk yet!
Loved his line when the Priest (not Neil Patrick Harris moment for me but Skarsgaard I can see ... except didn’t he have a very slight Scottish accent at one point? He was French, right? In the book? Did anyone hear that too?) says “How did you get here?” and Roger says “ I guess you could say I walked here”. Great line.
Did notice the dearth of Jamie and Claire scenes but loved the one they included. Need my Jamie fix. Next week there will be plenty. They have so much to cover!
I would like to have seen the Mohawk portrayed more like they did in the movie "Last of the Mohicans". Talk about dangerous and terrifying! Over all a great episode, well adapted from the book.
ReplyDeleteI could have spent the whole hour in the Roger story.The beat Roger yet. Talk about language and accents I couldn't understand a word John and Bree said the first time I watched it. She would be better off speaking naturally. When most Brits try to talk American they talk with mouth closed and lisp. I had to rewind and play again a couple of times.
ReplyDeleteThe snene where Roger is being beaten by the row of Native Americans is a ritual where if he could last to the end he could go free. The one Mohawk said, “You will remain a captive.” Roger didn’t quite make it. All about courage and being honorable.
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect I do not understand why some feel the need to criticize Tracy and Carol. They give up time they really don't have to chat with us about our favorite story, and I for one, appreciate it so much. They have given me smiles during a pretty rough year, and I hope they are crazy enough to stick it out for the duration. Thank you both for all you do.��
ReplyDeleteNot criticizing the people... We're fans. Responding to some of the reactions.
DeleteI like you, Tracey, thought the Easter egg was for that certain event that did not happen. But when I watched the 2nd time, it was duh! That's the whisky Roger threw on the fire.
ReplyDeleteI really liked this episode. It was one of my favorites of the season. I loved that Roger told the whole story of Bree. Richard has always made me see and feel his love for her - it has been in his eyes since the very 1st time they met. It was a tour-de-fore for Richard and way past time he got scenes like this.
Now I need the same next week for young Ian (my favorite character.) He hasn't had anything since he told Geillis he was "tired of yer blatherin!" He needs his moment to shine! I hope and need the writers to get this right!
Love, love, love LJ; he is indeed IMPOSSIBLE not to like,
Finally, I do love Fergus and Marsali. But, young Fergus was full of fire and afraid of nothing! Older Fergus shows more of his sweet side, and while I do love that, I would like to see more of the spunk he once had. I was glad he became the leader of the 'gang'. Maybe when they get to the ridge and back to milord he will come more into his own like he was as a child.
Hello Tracey and Carol. I appreciated your video this week, especially considering how tired you both were. Your "bad to the bone" lyrics about Bonnet smelling like a toilet cracked me up completely. I watched the episode twice and felt like most of the dialogue not taken from the book was short and a bit clunky. BUT I was truly affected by the last 5 minutes. The music playing over the silent voices in the final scene (Addagio for Strings) took my breath away; the "face acting" by the Healer and her Brother and Roger was so moving, I cried both times at the exact same point in the episode. Came away feeling like it was a good episode overall.
ReplyDeleteLove you Carol but didn't Lord John come on to a prisoner that he was in charge of?(jamie) Is that honorable? I too thought the pantry scene was weird but not because it wasn't honorable, two consenting single adults can have sex in the middle of the night with no one around, that doesn't make them not honorable. Careless maybe, stupid maybe, but it might have been a while for LJ and he probably doesn't have a lot of opportunities so he couldn't pass it up and in the book he does it with a slave is that honorable?
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't that he was not honorable, it was where he chose to do it. Very disrespectful to his hostess. And also, dangerous for him if he had gotten caught.
DeleteI think the big surprise to which you are refering is Sam Heughan's whisky debut. GREAT GLEN
ReplyDeletelORD jOHN ENDED UP AT Adsmure prison BECAUSE he was indiscrite about sex. That is the one thing that goes against the rest of his character.
ReplyDeleteEXCELLENT point and one I've not yet seen made. Well done, MTown. This is a really interesting piece of "food for thought." (Given we're talking about the pantry, I figured a food-based idiom would work well here....)
DeleteI found the bee-stung lips of the Mohawk mother of the priest's child very distracting. Nothing wrong with her acting though.
ReplyDeleteYes, those lips were driving me crazy, they were all I could look at when the camera was on her. Glad I'm not the only one who was so distracted. She was an excellent actress though.
DeleteHi Ladies! Love your Sunday night reviews. About the Easter Egg intro- my understanding is the Mohawk are drinking the casks of whiskey in camp. These casks are the ones Roger throws to ignite the flames to make them consume Father Alexandre and his love at the end. It was so heartwrenching. Also the so called idiot hut was strong. Roger try to shake the structure but it did not budge.
ReplyDeleteLove you, Carol and Tracey! Thanks for everything you do. You make me laugh out loud with every recap I watch. Don't ever change.
ReplyDeleteThe Mohawk traveled, trading with other tribes and apparently white settlers also, since they traded for Roger. For me, that explains the perfect English and different languages, whether they purposely learned English to help them in trading or it just happened from exposure to different languages. Also, at one point Young Ian says that the Mohawk take prisoners into their tribe (which they were willing to do with the priest) which would also explain different languages, accents. Just discovered your videos! Loving them!
ReplyDeleteEnjoy your vids. The scene at the beginning was Roger "running the gauntlet" (google will give more info) which my husband pointed out Roger should have known about being a historian by profession of some years. I gave Roger the benefit of the doubt as he would have been exhausted and disoriented by this time. Regarding the hut - my thoughts entirely! Thought it was a shame that they chose to change this scene from book version as the original could have been much more visually and emotionally powerful if done well. Time constraints I guess but I also wonder if the budget has suffered. I just dont get the same atmosphere with S4. Acting though remains brilliant from all. Still irks that Sam hasn't picked up an award - industry snobbery maybe?
ReplyDeleteWhoops last post not specific - the scene I refer to as being a shame to have changed was the finale burning of the priest and the Mohawk woman. On reflection though it might have played a bit like a rehash of the scene in Jamaica with the crocodile guy and fire and lots of natives slightly out of control before the geillis decapitation. Not sure if that would be good or bad?
ReplyDeleteHi to you two and hope you have a good week ahead. Here we are again with a very long drought ahead of us. Im a little anxious to see how they are going to wrap this all up in one last episode. They should have done a 16 episode season. Its going to be hard to sit through a possible cliff hanger and wait till April of 2020 for season 5. Looking forward to your next recap.
ReplyDeleteCarol love your hair like that it's so pretty!
ReplyDeleteTracey. What is interesting about the Easter eggs for book readers, is that we can usually figure out their purpose right away. I, like you, assumed they were going "there" with the way it played out originally in the book. So when they began that last scene, and there was no alcohol involved, I was scratching my head until he ran back to the camp...that is when the aha moment happened for me.
ReplyDeleteCarol. In the book, Roger thinks that Bree has set Jamie on him. He doesn’t find out until he is rescued, that Bree didn’t know anything about him being beaten and sold.
You are very spot on about the lack of relationship development on Bree & Roger in the show. It is downright annoying that they expect us to swoon over their “love story” when they have not show it to us.
Now for the elephant in the room...the usage of English/French/Mohawk. Back in season 1, whenever they spoke Gaelic around Claire, there was no use of subtitles. When asked why not, RDM said that they wanted the viewing audience to feel Claire's isolation, which was highly effective. So isn't the scenario the same for Roger? Isn't he an outlander? I wish they had stayed with that because I believe it would have made the Mohawk appear more fierce because none of us, especially Roger, would have any idea of his fate.
As for accents, when I speak Spanish, I can guarantee I'm speaking it with an American accent because American English is my native tongue. Why is it considered racist to assume that the Mohawk wouldn't have a different syntax to his English? When the Amish speak English, you can hear a different syntax, even though they were all born in the U.S. Heck...I'm from LI, you can hear the difference in MY accent. It is not racist, it is just cultural and regional.
The only real thing wrong with this episode was the lack of the lead characters. I know it was important to tell Roger's story, but it has been a bit unbalanced this season. I'm concerned how they are going to get the rest of the story in a 58 minute finale. Eek.
I, for one, am happy you are considering doing occasional videos during what will likely be the longest droughtlander yet. We are pretty far off from fall 2020. Thanks for thinking of us. Marian4456
I like these long, detailed videos. Carol, you said that Marsali had all these emotions showing on her face, yet Sophie I think does not. Her face is very bland and her voice does not show excitement or or raw emotion, whatever the accent. I thought she was cute last year when she was younger, but I find her very uninteresting this season, or rather the actress who plays her.
ReplyDeleteWhen I saw that prison/tent and being able to see through the leaves, I laughed. It looks like those fake fences you can buy that are a screen of fake greenery to cover your back yard fence so passersby can't see you. If Roger had a knife he could snip his way out!
I did miss Jamie and Claire. Just one scene, searching for Roger, would have been nice.
Ladies, are you forgetting the big love scene in the stable between Bree and Roger? I think that was supposed to show us their hot love for each other.
We have a LOT to get through next week: I hope they spread out the activity and don't dwell on one long scene, and I hope they cover lots of story line. But the one scene I want is The Baby. It's one of my favorites from the book. PLEASE!
Love you guys. I talk to you just like I am there. And I laugh with you too. Boy do we share the same ideas about the episodes! I so agree that the relationship between Bree and Rodger was not developed enough. But also agree that they approach love differently. Bree is confused because of what she thought was the relationship between Claire and Frank. Rodger is in love and able to be more vulnerable than Brianna. Learned from you comment that Fergus needs a person
ReplyDeletewho looks after him. He isn’t like book Fergus. Rodger says he thinks it was Bree’s father who beat him up. Wish he had said what reason he thinks for this. I read that they filmed Rodger at the stones being taken by Mohawks before he could touch stones. Since we didn’t see Mohawks I think we are to believe Rodger decided to stay. Then maybe he won’t go off after rescued. He already made up his mind. Sometimes I wish they would do more voice overs so we know characters thoughts. The voice over of Jamie’s letter to Bree didn’t say it was signed Da, but if you look closely IT WAS!
Again, I really look forward to our weekly conversations. I hope next weeks is happy that we got a good ending. You guys are the best ! Thank You!
Okay now this is funny, but Carol, when I was looking at your hair I thought how great it would look in a blunt shorter cut, then one second later you said, should I do the blunt cut, guys? I was like what?? Yes! Do it, it would look great!
ReplyDeleteI agree about the Roger and Bree relationship.
ReplyDelete(Tracy - I'm going to have to take a BIG drink for this....)
In the book it was way more developed (being in Roger's POV helped no doubt) but you could see the love and affection they had for each other, and how it grew and changed.
Rogers proposal was way more romantic and thought out (not just fumbling after a make-out session and NO visible growth in their relationship) , and even though Bree said no to the engagement, she said she loved him and explained her feelings about marriage and love, and said she wanted to wait AND HE AGREED! so they were still "together" ish. (as they could be long distance)
There was none of this false drama crap about them breaking up, so WE KNEW they cared for each other, and were in pause mode until Bree finished school at least.
When Bree cancelled a trip to come see him, he started to question if maybe things where changing, but when she sent all her "history" & the letter to him he knew what had happened, and WHY she didn't tell him. (she still loved him)
When they finally reunite, and they had their post "honeymoon" fight, he said he would come find her. so even if we knew they were mad, we knew he still cared about her (and SHE DID TOO), because there was less stupid drama crap!
And HE was still pretty sure she still cared for him, even when he was with the Mohawk (though he was a little unsure about why Jamie beat up his face!)
The show has screwed up their relationship BIG TIME, and it's hella annoying - it's also annoying that they don't seem TO SEE IT!
Bree and LJ have more chemistry, and Marsali and Fergus blow them out of the water, and we hardly see any of Claire and Jamie, so we got NOTHIN!
Tweetlee_dee
Q: when does young Ian find out about Claire coming from the future? He made a remark this season, like, ‘nothing surprises me about Auntie Claire’. And I can’t remember a scene in the books.
ReplyDeleteIn the next book the Fiery Cross, when I an comes back from the Mohawks.
DeleteHey there, fellow Outlanders! I was out of town Sunday, and my husband and I pledged to wait until my return to watch Episode 12 together - romantic, huh? I was in Tucson visiting family, and my cousin had never seen nor heard of Outlander. (Sometimes I wonder where these folks have been -hah!). Anyway, Sunday evening, while the episode was airing, we used her Direct TV On Demand function to watch Season 1, Episode 1. She was blown away, and said that as soon as we left on Wednesday, she would be bingeing the entire 4 seasons. Hubs and I didn’t watch till last night, but on the plane I pulled up DOA on my Kindle and read the last few chapters. Loved everything that was straight from the book, especially Jamie’s letter, and much of Lord John and Brianna’s conversations. Also very pleased with how they tied Murtagh’s escape in with the whole escape and blowing up of the prison. Brilliant!
ReplyDeleteIt was a tad confusing at the Mohawk camp though, without Jamie, Claire, and Ian’s involvement with negotiations to free Roger. I know they will be there next week, but they were definitely present when the priest was killed. I could swear that Healer Lady handed the baby to Claire before she walked into the fire. They hadn’t actually seen Roger, but knew he was there. I hope i’m not jet-lagged and remembering it wrong.
Carol, I know what you mean about not getting a frightening vibe from the Mohawks. The Tuscarora were very scary to Ridge Folk, I believe, because “Savages” were painted with one brush stroke in their minds. In reality though, the Mohawks were the more dangerous, even to other tribes (I think). It’s a vibe that’s just not there though. Steven Bonnet has that vibe, even more so than BJR, simply because he’s so uncivilized and unpredictable (like the Mohawks).
One thing I did notice in the book was how DG only referred to the Native Americans as “Indians”. Their English speech was almost stereotypical - “You white man, me red man” -that kind of thing. So perhaps the writers were being more PC. Although it really doesn’t bother me, or seem odd that they speak English as much as it does you, Tracey.
All in all, we loved Episode 12, but then I rarely have much negative to say. But I love hearing you guys go off on it! Hah! Can’t wait till Finale, and to hear your take on it.
Carla Hays
I do love Lord John, and agree that he’s impossible not to like, but I just can’t quite get over the infamous pantry! Did NOT need to see that!
ReplyDeleteI also forgot, till I read the other day, that LJG was at least a head shorter than Brianna. So happy they let that go in the Casting Department!